Episode Transcript
[00:00:21] Speaker A: The Tudor History and Travel show is a podcast that brings Tudor History to life by exploring Tudor places and artefacts in the flesh.
You will be travelling through time with Sarah Morris, the Tudor Travel Guide, uncovering the stories behind some of the most amazing Tudor locations and objects in the uk.
Because when you visit a Tudor building, it is only time and not space which separates you from the past.
And now, over to your host, Sarah Morris.
[00:00:54] Speaker B: Hello, my friends, and welcome to this month's episode of the Tudor History and Travel show with me, Sarah, your host, the Tudor Travel Guide.
Well, this month we are going to actually one of my favourite castles. It's Raglan Castle in Southeast Wales, and I love it for a couple of reasons. First of all, it's an unusual example of a late medieval and Tudor castle. You don't see too many of those around, so there are lots of wonderful architectural features to enjoy.
But perhaps more than that, of course, for a period of a few years, Raglan Castle was the childhood home of a young Henry Tudor, while he was the ward of Sir William Herbert, of course, a prominent Yorkist supporter during the wars of the Roses.
There's lots to explore at Raglan. In fact, this is not my first visit and indeed, if you are interested, I've written both a blog about Raglan and also I've done a couple of short videos that you can find on my YouTube channel and will include a link to those in the description associated with this podcast. And of course, as ever, there will be an augmented show notes page, so you'll find both my blog and some images taken while we were on location recording this podcast, all in the same place. Link is in the description.
Now, we'll be heading over to Raglan in just a moment, but it is rather opportune that I am visiting at this time of year, because when this podcast goes live, which will be the second week in June, in just two or three weeks from then, I will be leading a tour group in the footsteps of Henry VII and Elizabeth of York on their 1502 programme. Because Raglan was the pinnacle, the centerpiece of that particular tour, it really was a trip down memory lane for the founder of the Tudor dynasty. After a very, very difficult start to the year, of course, the death of the heir to the Tudor throne, Arthur Tudor.
So, although that particular tour is fully booked, I did want to just quickly let you know that we've opened bookings for our May tour next, which is Anne and Elizabeth, Mother, Tudor traitors, queens.
And we start in the county of Norfolk, tracing the routes of the Boleyns before heading to Hatfield and into the centre of London and finally enjoying a three night stay at the gorgeous Hever Castle. So if you are interested in either of those two ladies and visiting some of the most important locations associated with them, having a whole heap of fun along the way and learning loads of information from our on location expert guides, then check out the Simply Tudor Tours Tours page and once again we'll put a link in the description.
Okay, well, that's all we need to say. It is time to go time traveling.
So buckle up and let's whiz on over into Wales this time and meet with our expert guide, Peter Nash.
[00:04:24] Speaker C: Well, good morning my friends and what a morning it is. The sky is blue in every direction. The sun is out on a glorious late April day. And I have come a couple of hours from home today, driving eastwards to Monmouthshire to visit, I think, one of the most fantastic castles with just amazing Tudor History because of its links with the founder of the Tudor dynasty, Henry Tudor. Well, more on that to come will certainly be expected. Exploring his story here. But I'm talking of course about the mighty Raglan Castle. And we do, as ever, have a guide with us today who is going to accompany us as we explore the extensive and very interesting ruins of the castle, actually.
And perhaps one of the things that most intrigues me about Raglan over and above its connections with Henry Tudor is the fact that this is quite unusually a late medieval castle with some very distinctive Tudor features. Very interesting place to visit. And so I'm delighted to have our guide today with us, and that's Peter. Peter Nash.
[00:05:35] Speaker B: Hello.
[00:05:35] Speaker C: Welcome to the Tudor History and Travel Show.
[00:05:37] Speaker D: Thank you very much, sir. I'm delighted to be here with you today.
[00:05:40] Speaker C: Yeah. And you're, you're fairly local to here, aren't you?
[00:05:42] Speaker D: I live in Cardiff, but I was born and brought up about four miles away in a village called Llanarth. And so this is my, my, my most local castle, I suppose, and, and an absolute fascinating place for me to come back to. And I come back to it so frequently. It's, it's a place I love very, very dearly lovely.
[00:06:02] Speaker C: I, I guess as a boy you must have come here regularly as well.
[00:06:06] Speaker D: I'll tell you a little story, Sarah. The first time I came here I was probably about 8 and my father had given me a bag of apples to bring and I was standing just over there and they had a ram and they on a tether and it got loose and it chased me all around the castle.
And it caught me up against a wall over there and butted me very, very severely until I realized he didn't want me. You wanted my apples?
[00:06:28] Speaker C: He just wanted the apples.
[00:06:29] Speaker D: I gave him the apples and I got away.
[00:06:30] Speaker C: And it was peaceful thereafter.
[00:06:32] Speaker D: Absolutely wonderful.
[00:06:33] Speaker C: Okay. Well, today we've said we've got the most glorious day to explore. And we are so lucky, ladies and gentlemen, because the weather forecast had said it was going to be raining, but we've got beautiful blue skies, swallows and swifts sweeping around the ruins. They've all arrived after their long journey from South Africa and there's lots of ground to cover here Now, Peter, so obviously you've known this castle all your life. Were you ever a guide here at Raglan?
[00:07:03] Speaker D: No, I was never a guide.
You know, I was born in 1950. In those days they didn't have guides.
And I left, went to university and moved away slightly.
And so that was never an opportunity.
But I know the area very well. We used to have dances here, young farmers, dances. They were quite fun events in the actual castle grounds. In the castle grounds, yeah. Things have changed, haven't they? I don't think you allow that these days. No, no, no.
[00:07:32] Speaker C: The castle, like most of them, is managed this time by Cadoor, who have kindly given us permission to record here today.
So as is my way, I do like to follow things chronologically to try and make sense of buildings like this. And we're going to start at the beginning, but I'm going to try and describe. Oh, and I should say, dear listeners, of course, as ever, there's our usual show notes page. There'll be lots of photos in there. So hopefully if you can access your computer while you're listening to this, you'll be able to see some of the things that we're talking about. Now I'm going to do my very best to be as descriptive as possible because as I say, we've got some fascinating ruins here. And we're going to start next to what is thought to be the oldest or one of the oldest parts of the castle. And we have, I think it's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Is it a 6 or 7?
Eight sided tower? We have.
[00:08:29] Speaker D: I think so. Eight sided tower.
[00:08:31] Speaker C: So we have an octagonal tower in front of us.
Half of the wall has been blown away, so the inner parts are exposed. And we can see that there are. There were probably at least four floors. And we've got some fine windows, recessed windows, and fireplaces, particularly on the upper floors, which say to me that they would have been part of the privy apartments. Now, this tower is very fortified because it's surrounded by a moat. And I think that defensive nature was for very good reason. And that brings us really to the beginning of the story of Raglan Castle. Who built it and why?
[00:09:11] Speaker D: Well, absolutely, Sarah, the tower that we see in front of us here is called the Yellow Tower of Gwent. And it probably was actually five stories high. Would have been an outstandingly tall building when it was first built.
And of course, as you say, it's ruined now, the walls are being cut away. It was slighted in 1646 after the siege and civil war. And of course, Ragn Castle was the last but one castle in the country to be besieged in the civil war. So we can see the depth of the wall there. And they're enormous, aren't they? They're too enormous. So this was built on the site of the. Probably an earthwork castle dating possibly from the time of William ii.
And we know that was owned by the Bluett family and that William II came into Wales that period of time. And there's a whole series of earthwork castles and early Norman castles. The most famous one has probably been down chepstow, Monmouth, Abergavenny, etc. S castle. But. But this would have been a small castle at the time, and it really only takes off in the early 15th century. And what you have then is ownership by the Barclay family, by that sage. And it was bought around 1430 by a man called William A.P. thomas. And what we see in front of us, this tower, was probably built by William Up Thomas, which makes it rather unusual because William Up Thomas is a Welshman and not many of the large castles in Wales were built by Welshmen.
[00:10:48] Speaker C: And. And he was compared to his descendants from minor sort of Welsh gentry.
[00:10:55] Speaker D: Absolutely. His family came from a place called Wernze near Travigavenny, and his grandfather was. Was sh there. Winrap Thomas's father lived just north of of Monmouth on a place called Perth Year.
He was the fifth son of the fourth son.
So in English terms with primogeniture, you wouldn't have expected him to get very far in life, really.
[00:11:20] Speaker C: So how did he get the money to build this?
[00:11:24] Speaker D: Absolutely fascinating question.
What we can. Well, first of all, I think we need to go back a little bit probably to the Black Death. Black Death caused obviously a lot of people died. A huge number of people died. There was a surplus of land, There was a land grab, effectively. And so you get the development of Welsh swarm gentry class. So this is where his family came from. The way to go forward in life there really came down to three things. First of all, war, military success was absolutely important to be admired for your military prowess was. Was important. And William A.B. thomas almost certainly fought the Battle of Ashenko.
I can't nail it down precisely, but almost certainly fought there. Certainly his later father in law fought there, a guy called David Gam and.
And he.
And also the husband of his second wife, Roger Vaughan, they both fought and died as uncle. Now the speculation that William Thomas was with them at the time and also speculation that they were with a bunch of people that actually saved Henry V's life there. Of course, Henry's. Henry lost his, his brother at the Battle of Ashen Corps, but Henry V survived. So we have a meteoric rise from this gentleman, this guy from minor Welsh gentry who probably went as an archer, that's. We are a man with a horse though, but an archer to Agincourt and comes back and within eight years he's knighted or nine years he's knighted and becomes part of the royal court. So there must have been some very significant event that happened in France. Allow that to happen. He certainly went into subsequent campaigns in France with Henry in 14 and he was certainly there by 1420. So he made his money in France,
[00:13:23] Speaker C: so he made his money in war. Because you were saying there are three ways you could make your.
Make your way in life at the time.
[00:13:30] Speaker D: Absolutely, Sarah. The other two ways are important. The second was land management.
So if you were fortunate, like we know Thomas was, you become a steward for one of the great lords and the great lords take you under their wing. And the great lord at the time, because this was in the lordship of Ask, was the Duke of York and he owned the Lordship of Usk and it was one of his favorite residences. And William F. Thomas then becomes first of all Stuart of Aberragoni, but later the steward of Ask.
[00:14:01] Speaker C: Now can I just ask the Duke of York in question, is that the father of the future Edward IV and Richard iii, is that the Duke of York, we're talking
[00:14:12] Speaker D: his father actually had been executed on the east of ashen Cory in 1415. So a very complex piece of history, right?
That's the second way. And the third way is through the judiciary.
And so William F. Thomas becomes judiciary, I can't hardly say the word judiciary for South Wales.
And so this three pronged approach, military through administration, land administration, and thirdly, through managing legal affairs, you develop a regional importance and possibly become a national importance.
[00:14:48] Speaker C: And could I Add one, because marriage was also another way, wasn't it? If you happened to marry a nice, wealthy heiress, that didn't do you any harm.
[00:14:55] Speaker D: Well, that's how he got.
That's how he got it in the first place, because he married Elizabeth Barclay and then when the opportunity came, he was able to buy it, probably with money that he had acquired from being in France, because it was a huge money spinner. These campaigns in France, you know, particularly some of the battles that they fought in the late 20 teens, you know, they brought it back. I can't remember some of you saying that almost every house all benefited from that in the country.
[00:15:30] Speaker C: Yeah. So a lot to risk, I. E. Your life, but a lot to gain as well.
[00:15:33] Speaker D: And he paid a thousand marks for this in. I think it was in 1432, a huge amount of money.
[00:15:39] Speaker C: Huge amount of money.
Now, I've talked about the fact it's clearly very defensive. And you talked about the fact that this was built sort of in the 15th century, early 15th century. Of course, we're coming up, aren't we, by the mid 15th century to the wars of the Roses. So that's a factor perhaps in why this had a defensive element. But is this, Are there other factors about the geography and the sort of the political climate at the time that meant this needed to be a defensive structure?
[00:16:13] Speaker D: Well, I think at the time, geographically, it's in a good location.
It's a transportation fortham. In the very far distance, you might be able to hear the road, it goes straight into Wales. Abergavenny's sometimes called the gateway to Wales. So strategically, materially, it's in a good location.
We come after more significant than possibly later trouble. We come after the Glyndour Rebellion. And so, you know, William Thomas would have experienced all the. The Glindor Rebellion. Castles around here were fortified and there was always a concern, I suppose, about maintaining law and order. But when you look at this, the fact that he built it so high, you can see it primarily he was interested in status that was possibly more significant than at that stage.
We're talking about 1440s, probably more important than defense. But, you know, we have then from 1450s, 1455, you have the development, what we call the War of the Roses. Then you can see there's a need for defense.
So whereas before you have these great Wars With France, 100 Years War finishing in the 1450s, that takes all your energy, your military effort across the Channel, when they finish made, maybe you have to reinforce here, because now the military effect comes Back to this, this country.
[00:17:44] Speaker C: Yeah. Right. So we have the onset of the wars of the Roses, which of course was called the Cousins war. At the time it was the big feud between the Houses of Lancaster in York for supremacy.
So William at Thomas, who built the yellow, Yellow Tower, did you. Yellow Tower, Yellow Tower.
You mentioned he was a vassal of the Duke of York. So he was allied to the House of York.
[00:18:12] Speaker D: Yeah, you have, I mean they called it the having a good lord, didn't they? You know, so he had the protection, he looked, he worked for York and he had the protection of York. It's interesting, in that direction you have us where you have York, over in that direction you have Abergavenny which was a Lancastrian holding. And over this way Monmouth and the three Castle, the Lancastrian holding. Right, so we're right in the area where you have conflict, potential conflict between the House of Lancaster, House of York because they have adjoining lands here.
[00:18:44] Speaker C: I see, I see. Right, okay. So the other point that I just want to pick up on and it might be slightly out with what we were just discussing, but I think it's worthy of mentioning this term gets used the Marsha Lords.
Can you just, can you tell people, and for those people who are unfamiliar with that term what it means and, and why is it significant in relation to this castle?
[00:19:08] Speaker D: Yeah, well, absolutely.
The history of Wales is really quite complex. So you have the Principality of Wales which is further west, controlled by the King, but all the way down through what we call the borderlands and also into South Wales, into areas like the Dau and Pembrokeshire, you have Marcher Lordships. These are self controlled entities, they're controlled by the owners of the land and for them they have complete control over the law, the ability to execute people, the ability to raise armies that basically delegated to them by the crown.
And they, these Marcher families have been there since the conquest.
Many of them changed hands over a period of time, but they had con, they had control over the land here in a very, very medieval way.
[00:20:02] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:20:03] Speaker D: And so they didn't have to follow the laws as they came out of the country, out of Westminster or London. Was it Westminster in those days? I'm not sure. Yes, it was.
[00:20:13] Speaker C: Palace of Westminster was the seat. Seat of power. Yeah, absolutely.
[00:20:16] Speaker D: They didn't have to do that. They did what they wanted. And this was in the Lordship of Ask.
But interesting that this becomes the last Marcher Lordship to be established because under Will have Thomas's son William Herbert Edward IV granted this as the Lordship of Raglan, that was the last Marcher Lordship to be created.
[00:20:39] Speaker C: Right, okay. And what, what year was that roughly?
[00:20:43] Speaker D: We're talking in the 1460s.
[00:20:45] Speaker C: 1460s. So actually you made a nice bridge there into William at Thomas's son, another William, who Anglicized his name, didn't he? So he, he changed it to William Herbert. So I think that's where we need to go now because William Herbert took up his father's cause here at Raglan, I believe, and did a lot of building as well. And I suppose one of the other most notable features of Raglan is its gatehouse. This towering again, octagonal gatehouse towers which flank the side of the gatehouse leading through into the outer court there was that William Herbert's work was most of the rest of the castle, William Herbert's work, except the later Elizabethan changes, which we'll come on and talk about.
[00:21:31] Speaker D: Absolutely.
I think we have to. When we talk about William Hilbert, as we will go on to, we'll realize that he was in his time the most powerful man in Wales and certainly the richest man in Wales. And Raglan becomes an absolute centre of artistic, creative life, of courtly life and a huge political importance within Wales in the 1450s and 1460s particularly.
[00:22:03] Speaker C: I see. Because I've heard this called a palace, a palace castle. So, you know, palace fortress. So that's the kind of magnificence and scale that we're talking about here at Raglan, aren't we? I mean, money, no object.
[00:22:16] Speaker D: Sarah, describe those crenelations. Aren't they beautiful?
[00:22:18] Speaker C: Aren't they? Absolutely beautiful. So, yes, you have these, as I said, these towering at least, what, three, four story towers, These wonderful sort of machulations round the top with your gargoyles project. Oh, sorry. Projecting out from there. And obviously then you, you lead your way underneath the archway through into the inner court. And maybe that's where we should walk now and talk a little bit about Sir William. Unless there's something else we need to mention out here.
[00:22:47] Speaker D: I think what is worth mentioning is that William Herbert, just like his father, fought in France.
He fought in the battle Formigny, which was the final defeat in the north of France of the British forces taken prisoner and ransomed. But there are traces there, elements of French design, particularly those machinations. And also the front, because he effect, he changed, did superficial changes to great tower, certainly in terms of the entrance. And they're very, very French in architectural detail.
[00:23:18] Speaker C: Okay, so you get this really interesting blend of architectural designs. Why don't we take a stroll now and go into the first courtyard which is the outer courtyard. And maybe we can talk a little bit about the life story of the young Sir William and yeah, perhaps talk a little bit more about his life and, and his relationship with a certain Henry Tudor.
[00:23:43] Speaker D: Right, let's do it.
[00:23:44] Speaker C: Let's do it.
[00:24:09] Speaker D: Sam.
[00:24:35] Speaker C: Sa.
Oh my goodness, it's so beautiful. So we're walking under the gateway now. There's several arches, I presume at one point there must have been a portcullis that. Oh, I can see the hole here. So I presume was that a portcullis hole or was it on the other side? I'm not sure but we've got the regular porter's lodge I believe on our right hand side.
So if you were a visitor here you'd be checked. Your credentials no doubt will be checked. And then we come into this wonderful outer courtyard. Is this called Pitchstone court?
[00:25:49] Speaker D: Pitch stone court, yes.
[00:25:50] Speaker C: Why is it called that?
[00:25:51] Speaker D: I presume because we have this beautiful stone cobble. Cobbled cobblestone.
[00:26:01] Speaker C: I wonder, I wonder how old this actual courtyard floor is.
[00:26:05] Speaker D: Well, I think this comes from William Herbert's period of time. I think that there have been changes made. There were changes in the 16th century along our right hand side here, which was the domestic block. Yeah, the beautiful ashlad doorway there. I think that probably was done in the, in the Tudor period of time. Look at that window. It's absolutely amazing.
[00:26:31] Speaker C: So we've got this, so we've got. So basically let me just describe. We've, we've come into the courtyard, it's sizable courtyard here and we've got the gatehouse behind us. Over on our right, as Peter was saying, there are the ruins of a, well, domestic range. They would have been the service offices to, to keep the castle running.
The far range contains the kitchens and then over to our left you can see that that's the grandest range of the castle because we have the porch that you were just talking about there, probably a later, slightly later addition and then a beautiful towering. I think that's an Elizabethan oriel window. So that's added one of those features. We'll talk about the Elizabethan period and what was done to the castle. But we, we're coming in here to talk about the second William.
So what can you tell us about when he was born?
[00:27:25] Speaker D: Well, we don't know that precisely. We don't know that precisely.
Not, not a record of it at all.
We do know that he went to London probably about the age of 18.
He appears to have been employed at the time in trade, possibly trade with Calais and that was, you know, Calais was of so great an importance. Trade with Calais, victualling the port of Cali and the Calais and the garrison, it was very, very important. So he possibly was involved in that. And then he comes back to this area of the country and he develops a power base with his affinity.
If we just develop the idea of the affinity. He had a very large extended family and they were obviously a very capable bunch of individuals and they become very powerful here because they fought in the French wars, they come back with martial experience, they came back with a degree of ruthlessness, I've no doubt whatsoever.
And then he makes a brilliant marriage to a woman called Anne Devereux from Herefordshire and that gives him links to the north here, which was very, very important as well. So he develops a local power base. He does, just like his father had done, he learned from his father.
He becomes a manager of estates very, very close to the York family.
And he is not known now as someone you can rely on, particularly if you've got to sort problems out. Okay. And he does, he's a fix. He does that for the Duke of York correctly. There's problems down in Devon, he goes to fix it for the Duke of York, there are problems in West Wales, he goes to fix it for the Duke of York and he actually gets into trouble with.
This is such an interesting period of time series. So you've got Henry VI on the throne. Poor guy, he inherits the throne when he's just a little baby and he never really manages to, to do the job effectively, just not.
[00:29:30] Speaker C: He's just not that kind of character. Is he required, the character required by a medieval king?
[00:29:35] Speaker D: Probably a lovely guy, but I'm afraid just not up to it.
So great, great shame for him. Right. But of course the Duke of York was right and he really wanted the job and he's down here and William Herbert becomes his steward and then gradually becomes his right hand man and things develop in a very interesting way. And then of course we have the beginning of the wars the Roses, not here, but over in St Albans.
And so you have the first battles, the wars the Roses and then they go into Shropshire and you have. And particularly actually into the area of Ludlow. And so you have confrontation at the bridge there, Ludford Bridge. And then York goes back up to his own area and gets killed.
Very, very sad period of time. But he in a way had it coming because of what he'd done before in St Alban. So he alienated so many people.
So you're getting a degree of chaos developing. And at the same time, his son, who becomes Edward IV is here in the Marches, is at Ludlow, and he is known very, very well by William Herbert. William Herbert goes to him and they end up with a battle, a really critical battle at Mortimer's Cross in Herefordshire. And here, Jasper Tudor on one side, and you've got William Herbert fighting for Edward IV on the. Who will become Edward IV on the other side. Jasper Tudor is.
Is. His army is annihilated, full of Scots and Irish mercenaries. Fight very, very bravely, but they can't cope with a military power that the affinity that William Herbert had developed here on the Marches was able to protect against them. And Edward iv very, very. The young man has this vision of these three sons. You know the story.
[00:31:35] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:31:36] Speaker D: So they. They see these three sons in the tournament in the morning and people are terrified of it, but he says it's good omen. They go on and they fight and they win the battle. And from there, William Herbert goes with Edward and they go to London and Edward is crowned, becomes Edward iv and William Herbert then goes with him up to the north of England and they fight a decisive battle, the very, very bloody battle in Yorkshire, Towton.
[00:32:01] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:32:02] Speaker D: And that establishes Edward IV on the throne. So we're talking about 1461, a pivotal year in English history.
And so Henry VI is effectively disappears.
Edward IV now takes over the power.
We have two kings in the country, but only one operating.
So oddly enough, some people say there are three kings because there's another man, and that's the Earl of Warwick, and he's a very, very important person. The King Maker. The King Maker been very, very well known in English history in a way that William Herbert should be known in Welsh history, because William Herbert was the Welsh equivalent.
And we'll see that towards the end of this period of time, it's actually Edward's reliance on William Herbert that alienates Warwick that leads him to reinvade the country and eventually kick Edward off the throne for a short period of time.
[00:33:03] Speaker C: Now, I. I understand as we get to that point in the story, that William Herbert had his kind of final meal here at Ragnan Raglan in the Great Hall. Should we just have a walk through and maybe just talk a little bit about that period?
[00:33:17] Speaker D: Well, can I just talk about his wife?
I think now, you know, we talk about William Herbert as a very impressive man.
And by the time he. He was the first Welshman to be a noble, he becomes The Earl of Pembroke. He was the first Welshman to have become taken over the Order of the Garter. When I say Welshman. Welsh speaking Welsh running in the Republic.
He was judiciary of South Wales and North Wales, huge amount of land, very, very wealthy and very, very successful. But his wife must have been an amazing woman.
[00:33:54] Speaker C: Tell me about her.
[00:33:55] Speaker D: Well, Anne Devereaux, I mean, unfortunately we don't know very much about him, but when we talk about Henry Tudor, we will maybe develop our ideas about her then.
[00:34:03] Speaker C: Okay, lovely. Well, we have come through the porch from the outer courtyard and I would just, just, I'm just going to take a little side step in the narrative here because one of the things I really love about Raglan Castle, it's got all the features you need or you would associate with any castle and it's laid out just as you would expect them to. So I did do a film some couple of two or three years ago called how to Read a Tudor Castle and I actually came here and you did it at Raglan. And you'll see all the features, the gatehouse, the outer courtyard, you'll see the, the porch and the great hall, the screens passage connecting yonder to the kitchens and then an inner courtyard surrounded by the high status lodging. So it's just a wonderful place if you want to see all the features that you would expect to see in a great Tudor house. And I will put a link to that video in the description associated with the podcast if you want to have a look at that. So that's just an aside for a moment. Let's rejoin our story. So I wanted to come in here because, you know, we have the eve of the battle of Edgecote, which will be the nemesis for poor Sir William. And he ate his final, he had his feast here. I mean it's an amazing thing to think we're looking at the high end now. There's a slightly raised dais there to think of that, that, that night, what was going through his head.
[00:35:32] Speaker D: Well, here we are, we're in 1469.
Edward IV is desperate because the Duke of Warwick has come into the country and his threatening his kingship.
The person he calls on is William Herbert.
We, we know that Edward was up in the north of England.
We're a long way away from Raglan, but he was his go to man.
Edward called him his master lock in Wales.
And so that obviously shows the importance of William Herbert to the king at the time.
You can imagine that night before they went, this place would have been crowded. Yeah, there would have been all the affinity, the men that would go with him and fight him, that was that they were relatives. And if you look at the. The death toll from the. From the battle itself, there's so many local people who died, who were all connected with him.
It would have been a night of feasting and music.
Music was very, very important here, as was the telling of poetry and scene.
And this would have been a center for Welsh culture. And very much that was connected with praise poetry. So you would have. A poet would stand up, would sing, would play on the harp, and there would be poems in celebration of William Herbert. So they left on a high. And they left on a high as well, because they had this idea in their head, and it came back from Welsh prophecy, and it was called the Mabdo Darragh. And.
And the idea was you would get from Wales, somebody would come eventually who would reclaim the Welsh heritage, which was to go back to London to become king.
[00:37:20] Speaker C: Right.
[00:37:21] Speaker D: This is what Glyndoor had tried to do.
And Herbert's followers were convinced that he was on a mission that was going to fulfill prophecy. So they were very, very confident of what they were going to achieve.
[00:37:35] Speaker C: Okay. So they. So actually, I was thinking, you know, you're heading off to battle. You might be feeling pretty anxious and tense, but maybe that. It sounds like, you know, they. They knew how to kind of get themselves in the right state, But I
[00:37:47] Speaker D: think they would have been the right state.
[00:37:48] Speaker C: Hopefully they didn't drink too much.
[00:37:51] Speaker D: I'm sure they probably did r of that as well. You know, I think they would have been very, very full of adrenaline. They would have been very boy.
And then they went down the following day. Day down into the village of Ragnar where the playing fields are almost certainly that's where they muster their army.
[00:38:05] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:38:06] Speaker D: And. And where quite recently, they found a very beautiful signet ring with his name with W for William and A for Anne on there, which is now in the National Museum in Wales.
[00:38:18] Speaker C: Is it? I must try and see that one day. There's a beautiful artifact. Listeners, dear listeners, if you want to try and see something associated with Sir William.
So I'm going to use this night, this night of feasting prior to the battle to actually pause and rewind our story and pick up the story of little Henry Tudor. I. I call Raglan one of his childhood homes. I know most people think of Pembroke castle, and of course, Pembroke was one of Henry's childhood homes, but he spent seven years here. So maybe you could tell us how he came to be at Raglan and What his time was like here. What do we know of that?
[00:40:24] Speaker D: Well, these were his formative years, there's no doubt about that.
He came here at the age of four in 1461, and he came as a ward.
He'd been sent here. I think it probably cost William Herbert some pounds at the time to. To bring him here. And the idea was that in those days it was very commonplace, wasn't it, for wards to go to noblemen's houses for their education.
And he was brought here with the idea that he would be educated, but also that in course of time that he would marry Herbert's Tudor Maud.
[00:40:58] Speaker C: Perhaps we should just say that he was brought here because I think you mentioned it earlier that Pembroke was under siege and Jasper, his uncle and guardian, had fled abroad. So little Henry was left behind and picked up by the Yorkist forces.
[00:41:11] Speaker D: Absolutely. Well, all through the 60s there was. There was always a threat that the Lancashians would come back.
So be good to look after young Tudor in a place which was secure. This is very, very secure.
And who had actually spent a lot of his time making sure that Yorkist forces were kept out of Wales. Eventually he had to go up to Harlot Castle and besiege Harlot Castle, one of the few people managed to do that. And of course, up the north of England we have the Nevilles fighting against Lancastrians there. So it was not a period of complete tranquility by any stretch of the imagination. So it's important you have Tudor here, young Henry Tudor, in a very, very secure location. And he certainly was. Wasn't just him, there was Henry Percy as well.
[00:41:55] Speaker C: Oh, I didn't know that.
[00:41:56] Speaker D: This is. Well, this is of critical importance, actually, if you don't mind my saying so, because Henry Percy would go on to marry another of William Herbert's children.
Right. So the idea was that Tudor would marry Maud and Henry Percy would marry another. And we'll come back to Henry Percy when we talk about the Battle of Bosworth.
[00:42:16] Speaker C: Yes. Okay.
[00:42:18] Speaker D: So, yeah, he was brought up here, young Henry Tudor. He was obviously part of the family, a very, very integral part of the family. We could tell it from what happens later. And when Henry Tudor becomes king, one of the very first things he does is to call for Anne Devereaux to go up to London, this woman he hadn't seen for 17 years, but he had been brought up by her and he obviously loved her and they loved him.
So it was a very, very close family bond and there were lots of Herbert children. So you can imagine he grew up in a very, very lively, very, very bright, a very affluent, but a very exciting home. And he learned Welsh, which is very interesting. And William Herbert was also very interested in making sure that his education was complete. So he would do all the young Marshall things, you know, he.
He would learn to ride horses, he would possibly learn to use wooden saws, etc. That type of thing.
And then William Herbert actually took him to North Wales to watch a campaign that he fought in 1468, where again, Jasper came over and he defeated Jasper, a place called Tatil in Caven.
[00:43:31] Speaker C: Henry must have had pretty mixed feelings on that one.
[00:43:33] Speaker D: I think so. But even more, you took. Took him to Edgecoat with him.
[00:43:37] Speaker C: Yes. I see.
[00:43:38] Speaker D: Absolutely astonishing. So this is part of the education of a young man. So we're talking about. Well, how old is he? He's 13.
[00:43:45] Speaker C: Yeah. Young, young, young lad.
[00:43:47] Speaker D: He takes him to Edgecot where he goes to fight this critical battle and young Henry Tudor witnesses the fact that the man that he loves, William Herbert, has actually been taken capture and is going to be executed. So, so, and. And then he has to be taken away from the battlefield, hurried off to Herefordshire to protect him. So it's a very interesting childhood, but I think this was, you know, Henry Tudor story. He was. He was in France for so long, he was exiled so long, he probably always looked back. This has been a place of happiness for himself. He enjoyed his life here. It was a stable home for him and that was something he didn't have any. Any time afterwards.
[00:44:28] Speaker C: Well, I mean, on that point, last year, I concluded, researching and writing in full Henry VII and Elizabeth Yorke's 1502 progress, where they come to Ragland, they start at Woodstock, they wend their way through the Cotswolds, but they are specifically heading here. And they come here for a week. And it's a very interesting progress in that very often summer progresses. There was a lot of sort of civic display, a lot of pomp and pageantry. It was about reinforcing power and kingship. But according to Sam Harper, who's one of the sort of historians very interested in Henry vii, she. She put it beautifully when she said this particular process, progress was a very personal one. It came on the back of the death of Prince Arthur in April of that year. So the couple were obviously in grief and in a very reflective mood. Elizabeth of York had become pregnant again, but she talks about this progress as being a trip, like a trip down memory lane. And he comes here back to Raglan and the couple stay here for a week in August 1502. And I think Sir Walter Herbert is still in residence. He doesn't own it by that time. Cause I think it's gone to the Somersets at that point. But I think he was allowed to stay here until the end of his life, so.
And am I right in saying him and Walter really became buzz and buddies?
[00:45:50] Speaker D: Well, Walter's very interesting, very important person here. And you know, if we talk about 1485 being a pivotal year with the Battle of Bosworth, Henry Tudor was brought up here with, as I said, with the Herbert family. One of those is Walter Herbert.
And William Herbert was the older son. And one Tudor is very, very important. And we've mentioned also the young Percy.
Each of these will be players in 1485, as was the Stanley family. Of course. Margaret Beaufort came here when Henry was here to make sure that he was okay. His mother came here.
[00:46:26] Speaker C: She did, did she? She was allowed to come and see him.
[00:46:29] Speaker D: She came and spent a week here and she was in constant contact, I think, with Aunt Devereaux. So they, you know, she, she sanctioned the wardship. She was happy. The wardship. And so she, she, she was, I think, comfortable with what was happening there.
All of these people would coalesce in 1485 and they would ensure that Henry winned the battle.
[00:46:50] Speaker C: Yes, because Walter fights alongside him, even though he's come from a Yorkist family.
[00:46:55] Speaker D: Well, more than that. They let them get into Wales, don't they?
[00:46:58] Speaker C: Yes, they do.
[00:47:00] Speaker D: They land it lands in. In Pembrokeshire. They could have stopped them there. That's what Richard III told him to do. They didn't. And Walter actually shadows Henry all the way through, through Wales until he gets towards the battle and fights for him, as does Ceris ab Thomas. And he, of course, actually was related to her, was by marriage. So there was, it was a huge connection with the Battle of Bosworth and this place here.
[00:47:26] Speaker C: That's interesting. That started strands even Tudor together for me, the family connection and how extensive it was and who was surrounding Henry as a young boy and how they clearly, you know, they forged bonds of friendship that lasted a lifetime. And also I think Sam was telling me that Walter would send Henry a gift every year on the anniversary of the Battle of Bosworth for the rest of his life.
[00:47:51] Speaker D: That's interesting.
[00:47:52] Speaker C: Which is really a remembrance, shall we say.
Oh, that's wonderful. Now, you mentioned endeavour. Is there anything else we need to know about her? Obviously she, you know, she became very fond of little Henry.
[00:48:04] Speaker D: Well, only as Much to say is, I think that she is one of the great forgotten heroines of our history. You know, she had a really pivotal impact.
But we know that when William Herbert was heavily involved, involved in, in warfare or sorting out problems where it was. She was a brilliant manager of this place.
She was financial manager. She, you know, this is a big undertaking. If you can imagine running a place this size with a number of retainers that you have with a huge estates. They're enormous estates. So when, when William Herbert was away, she was there and she was operating very, very effective effectively. So sure, she was a very clever woman, there's no doubt about that. As well as, I think being a very warm personality.
[00:48:52] Speaker C: Excellent. Okay, well, I think that probably could have pulls together the story of Henry here. So I want to shift gear a little bit and leave the great hall, if we may, and head into the inner courtyard because I think it's a particularly spectacular. From an architectural point of view, it's particularly spectacular. Killer.
Oh, I love it. Right, let's have a sit down.
[00:50:47] Speaker D: Oh, that's good.
[00:50:48] Speaker C: Oh, we're gonna rest our aching bones, dear listeners. Oh, dear me.
So we have come back out into the sunshine, into the ruined remains of the inner courtyard. This is called Fountain Court, I believe, because once upon a time there was a fountain, a decorative fountain in the center.
I. It's a bit smaller than the outer courtyard, as you would expect, because the inner courtyard was where the privy lodgings and guest lodgings for esteemed guests would be. And I think there's no finer example of that here at Ragdoll. You really get a sense of the, the lavish luxury particularly the guests would have enjoyed. And I think one of the first things that strikes me when I come into this is you see this lovely processional staircase. This, this leads right the way up. And it would have originally gone into the guest lodgings. Are these William Herbert's. Is this all William Herbert's work?
[00:51:46] Speaker D: I think that probably we've got beautiful ashra stones there, isn't it? I, I think probably this is slightly later than we. A bit later over there we've got. We now have Thomas's south gate. And of course there's the, the tower, the, the, the great tower. But I think this is probably, you know, Castle Scott, like we do with our houses. They got modified over periods of time. I'm sure that ashlar came later. It's very, very beautiful, isn't it? And I think possibly you can see some brick as well in some of the buildings which gives part of away. The idea that this is actually during the Tudor period of time, that we've got this.
[00:52:27] Speaker C: Yeah, I. I mean, I think that's a really good point because you can definitely see as you look around the. The whole sweeping range, that's probably nearly, nearly half of this of the courtyard. And then as you say, there's a. Another sort of earlier gate house entrance to the court. And then we have our privy lodging range that would have been used by the Lord and the lady, connecting to the yellow tower across the moat there. But you're quite right, if you look, you can definitely see fireplaces set in to these guest apartments and they've got the typical Tudor arch with the red brick there. So that's really what I want to come and talk about. Now. We've, we've kind of talked about the family, particularly the early family and the family as it was in the 15th century. But this house goes on to develop in its level of luxury and splendor through into the Elizabethan age. So maybe we could sort of roll things forward and talk about what happens after Sir William Herbert.
[00:53:32] Speaker D: Yeah, William, we didn't actually mention this denouement properly, did we?
What happened to William Herbert?
He goes into North Oxfordshire, takes the army here from Raglan, meets up with the Earl of Devon.
The night before the battle, they appear to have an argument. Their forces are separated. William Herbert fights very, very bravely, as does his brother Richard Herbert.
But they defeated in the end. It must have been a hot day fighting in plate armor near to Banbury.
And he's taken prisoner, as we mentioned. Henry Tudor is taken from the battlefield, rushed away to Herefordshire and William then is William Herbert is taken to Northampton where he's summarily executed by the other warriors.
So we have a period of time from 1469 until 1485 where things are slightly uneasy for Raglan. First of all, Ula Warwick is now the power controller of the country until 1472.
And so he probably looks after quite a lot of this land.
Difficult for and Herbert there to look out, to manage things.
But when Edward IV comes back into the country, the Herbert family start to raise their profile again. And William Herbert's son William, then he becomes the Earl of Pembroke after his father. Then he gets to motive, becomes the Earl of Northumberland twice, Allow.
Allow Edward to make his son the Earl of Pembroke himself. And unfortunately he was one of the children that died in the Tower.
So things stayed fairly stable up until, I suppose until the Tudor period of time. And then we have probably a great development Here, where the. The Raggan castle is actually owned by Elizabeth Herbert, and she marries Charles Somerset, and that links them then with the Beaufort family and again links them with the monarch, with Henry Tudor, of course. Henry Tudor the son of Margaret Beaufort.
Charles Somerset is the illegitimate son of. Of.
Of the same grandfather. So they are cousins.
[00:56:10] Speaker C: Well, Henry Tudor and Charles Somerset are cousins.
[00:56:14] Speaker D: They're cousins even though Charles is illegitimate.
[00:56:16] Speaker C: I see.
[00:56:17] Speaker D: And they're practically contemporary and they become friends.
And so you have a situation where as Henry develops his power, he brings Charles into the court and he becomes a courtier for him.
[00:56:32] Speaker C: And we're talking here what, what sort of date and hour we are we at.
[00:56:35] Speaker D: We're in the 1490s.
[00:56:37] Speaker C: Okay, right.
[00:56:38] Speaker D: And so from then on, the Somerset family developed their importance. The. The early ones. There were five critical members of the Somerset family who lived in Raggan Castle. There was Charles, Henry, William, Edward and Henry. Again, each of them were in turn the Earl of Worcester. Charles became the first Earl of Worcester, and they were all courtiers.
They all acted for the king or queen of the time. They all became quite important in terms of foreign affairs, being ambassadors, doing foreign trips for them, and becoming also very, very close, intimate with each of the monarchs in time, each of them very, very trusted.
And so with. Under the Somersets, this place thrives again.
[00:57:31] Speaker C: Right.
[00:57:32] Speaker D: The first two Somersets, Charles and Henry, probably had very little impact on natural fabric, the castle.
But the next one that came along, William certainly did, the third Earl of Worcester, certainly put a lot into this place.
[00:57:48] Speaker C: So again, by the time we get to him, are we in the mid 16th century by this time?
[00:57:54] Speaker D: Yeah. We're now talking about Elizabeth.
[00:57:56] Speaker C: So we're into the Elizabethan period, because I think from what I've read of Raglan, this is where you. You almost get the. The second sort of flourishing of Raglan. And, and, and this is where you see the building continue to evolve architecturally. And I think this is. Is what's so interesting, that you see these, all these different stages, different types of building in one building. So what happens to the building and what changes are brought about here?
[00:58:24] Speaker D: Well, I think, you know, we've got a period of economic stability and we've got a period of political stability, absolutely critical. So you can spend your time doing what you want, investing your money more effectively than you've done before.
Each of these Somersets spend a lot of time in court, but they also spend time here in Raglan. And they've got the money now to invest in their household, and they have the status that they want to see reflected in the castle. And so going away from a fortified castle, it becomes a huge and very, very fancy mansion, to be quite honest. It becomes a place that. That is very, very desirable, with beautiful accommodation, highly decorative, very, very sumptuous quarters for people to come and visit.
They're fortunate, I have to say this, they're fortunate that they're quite a long way from London because they never get a royal visit during Elizabeth's reign. One of those things that could cripple you economically.
But they obviously entertained lavishly here and they built a very, very beautiful place themselves. And it wasn't just. And this is what I find fascinating, not just the castle buildings itself, where they have a fantastic gallery, they make, they improve the hall, they have a new domestic range, they have brilliant apartments for their visitors, making it into a really palatial, sumptuous place. But they also work on the outside.
They put in a new perimeter, they put in a little gateway which is new as the entrance. But they do what you see possibly better in some of the places where they've been better preserved. A place like Warwick Castle, they put in gardens which are absolutely phenomenal.
Sorry, Kenilworth rather than Warwick.
And so they become really. It becomes a huge status thing. So they have their home in London, but this is where they go back to and where they can look back and look at themselves and say, well, we've really achieved. We really arrived in this world.
[01:00:34] Speaker C: Yeah.
[01:00:34] Speaker D: And we are actually at the top of society, which is what they will.
[01:00:38] Speaker C: Yeah. And all of those gardens have gone now, haven't they?
[01:00:41] Speaker D: You can see the traces of them.
[01:00:43] Speaker C: Can you? And where do you best see those from?
[01:00:45] Speaker D: Well, of course. And this is where they had it really well worked out, the long gallery. If you look to the end of the long gallery, you'd overlook the gardens. So you'd have a high window where maybe 30 foot above the ground. And there you would look over the gardens, as you would do from the apartments.
[01:01:03] Speaker C: It's beautiful, isn't it? And, dear listeners, actually, if you were come to Raglan and you stand where the footprint of the chapel is next to the great hall, and you look up, you'll see the remains of the window that Peter's talking about. And you'll also see some real Renaissance figures there, the plaster work that still survives, which is clearly not of medieval origin, that is clearly much later.
So you can see these fragments of later Elizabethan architecture. So if architecture is your thing, it's really fascinating.
[01:01:35] Speaker D: But as we talked about the importance of the links to the monarchy was also the downfall.
And that would come during the War of the Three Kingdoms, the Civil War.
[01:01:47] Speaker C: Civil War. English Civil War.
[01:01:49] Speaker D: English Civil War. And so, you know, you had Ragn Castle besieged in.
In 46, in 1646, and not lived in after that.
[01:01:59] Speaker C: What a shame. And then it was slighted. It was, ie me, I. E. It was purposely dismantled.
[01:02:05] Speaker D: Absolutely. All the good bits were taken away that could be taken away later on by the Beaufort family to places like Badminton.
And, of course, whoever could have got hold of any building material they possibly could.
[01:02:18] Speaker C: The locals come, didn't they, and rob stuff out for local building projects?
[01:02:23] Speaker D: Well, you think of. You think of the lead and the roofs, the timber here, which of course is all gone now. We have a very beautiful ruin, but we can't really. You have to take quite a lot of imagination or find someone who's a very good artist to give you an idea of quite a beautiful century. It was when it was in full swing.
[01:02:41] Speaker C: Yes. I mean, I think that's one of the beauty of places like this. You've got enough that your imagination can build on it.
With a little bit of reading, a little bit of research before you come along, or listening to a fantastic podcast just like this, you can come well armed to recreate what life would have been like here at Raglan. Before we wrap up, I just wanted to mention that down at Monmouth in the. I think it's St. Mary's there. You do have a tomb of one of the Somersets. I think it's Charles Somerset with his wife in Chepstow. In Chepstow. Sorry, I didn't mean Monmouth, I meant Chepstow in Chepstow. And I mentioned that because his wife was Elizabeth Neigh Brown and she infamously is said to have been one of the first accusers of Amberlynn, giving Cromwell the evidence, loose evidence that he needed to bring down Anne and the Berlin faction. And. And you can still see the tomb there. Are there any other good Somerset tombs to be seen in the area?
[01:03:43] Speaker D: Well, not the area. I mean, the best Somerset tomb, of course, is up in Windsor Castle.
That's where Charles Somerset and his. His wife, Elizabeth Herbert were buried.
Absolutely fantastic tomb. If you can get into Wings and have a look at it.
The.
[01:04:02] Speaker C: In St. George's Chapel.
[01:04:04] Speaker D: George Chapel, yeah. Yeah, I haven't.
[01:04:06] Speaker C: I haven't noticed that one. So which. Which Charles are we talking about?
[01:04:09] Speaker D: We're talking about the first one.
[01:04:10] Speaker C: The first one.
[01:04:11] Speaker D: Right. The first Earl of Somerset. So.
[01:04:14] Speaker C: Right.
[01:04:14] Speaker D: That's the Most noticeable one.
[01:04:18] Speaker C: Interesting.
[01:04:18] Speaker D: Yeah. I'm scratching my head to see where the rest of them are buried, actually.
[01:04:21] Speaker C: Yeah. Wow.
Some of them, for example, poor William, that we're not. He's not a Somerset Herbert, but having been executed, is probably just lost somewhere. I would.
[01:04:31] Speaker D: Yeah, that was the two tombs we do know. William have. Thomas has got a very beautiful effigy in Abergavenny.
[01:04:38] Speaker C: Yes. Been there.
[01:04:39] Speaker D: Absolutely fantastic.
With his. With his wife as well.
Gladys. Gladys the beautiful. That's beautiful. And his brother as well. Oh, and William Herbert himself. His body was brought back to Tintern Abbey and there's. There's no evidence now where he was buried. There are some pictures that were drawn in the 17th century, but we haven't got any. We've lost it now.
[01:05:07] Speaker C: Now, you. I remember now, you say, having been to Tinton. Yes.
[01:05:10] Speaker D: But his brother Richard, who fought so gallantly at Ed Scott, he's also buried in Abergrain.
[01:05:15] Speaker C: That's an incredible. It's called the Westminster of the of Wales, isn't it?
[01:05:20] Speaker D: I think so, yeah. Well, the effigies there, they're amazing. It used to be called the Herbert Chapel. They renamed it now. But they're an absolute fantastic lot of
[01:05:27] Speaker C: it, really, dear listeners, it's, it's, it's. If you love your tombs, it's a wonderful little church to go into. So that's. I can't remember the name. It's not St. Mary's in Abergabenny.
[01:05:39] Speaker D: Yeah. It used to be the Priory Church of Goveney.
[01:05:41] Speaker C: Yes, wonderful. Well, I think that brings us to the end of our story here today.
Thank you so much, Peter, for being our guide. And I have learned some lovely little nuggets of information about the Herberts, and that's sense of what an infrastructure of familial connections that were built around Henry in those early years actually paid off like several years later, I think.
[01:06:11] Speaker D: So. I mean, that idea of extended family and the people that you relate to providing your power base is very, very important.
And that certainly as clever.
[01:06:24] Speaker C: Thank you so much.
Such a wonderful day. We could. We couldn't be more blessed. So, my friends, that concludes our exploration of Raglan. I do hope you can plan a trip here. It's a fantastic place, well worth seeing and of course, wonderful. A big thanks to Kadu for allowing us to do our podcast recording here today. And we'll be putting a link to their website so you can find out all the information that you need about visiting in the description. And of course, I've mentioned a couple of things along the way, including my research into the 1502 progress and a couple of videos that I've recorded here. One about the story of the Herbert's and Henry Tudor here, and another one about how to read my castle. So again, we'll include those links in the description.
So that's it from me. I'll be seeing you on the road again soon.
Thank you for tuning in to today's episode of the Tudor History and Travel Show. If you've loved the show, please take a moment to subscribe like and rate
[01:07:43] Speaker B: this podcast so that we can spread the Tudor love.
[01:07:47] Speaker C: Until next time, my friends. All that remains for me to say is Happy time traveling.
[01:08:07] Speaker D: Sam.
