Episode Transcript
[00:00:21] Speaker A: The Tudor History and Travel show is a podcast that brings Tudor history to life by exploring Tudor places and artefacts in the flesh.
You will be travelling through time with Sarah Morris, the Tudor Travel Guide, uncovering the stories behind some of the most amazing Tudor locations and objects in the uk.
Because when you visit a Tudor building, it is only time and not space which separates you from the past.
And now over to your host, Sarah Morris.
[00:00:54] Speaker B: Welcome back, my friends, to another episode of the Tudor History and Travel show with me, your host, Sarah the Tudor Travel Guide. Wherever you are tuning in from and whatever you are doing, you are most welcome. I hope you enjoy today's adventure in time. And in fact, this is the third in the series of three episodes which are focusing on those final years of Catherine of Aragon.
We'll come back to that in a moment, but beforehand I have a little announcement to make and that is, many of you will be aware that over on my sister company, Simply Tudor Tours, we have been running a fabulous giveaway to win a free place. Yes, that was a free place on our Rise and Fall of Amberlynn tour in September of this year.
Now we had over 9,000 people enter giveaway, but nevertheless we did choose a winner at random. And that winner is Susan Gersh and she will be joining us in September, I hope for a trip of a lifetime.
Now, if you entered and were unlucky on this occasion, I just first of all want to thank you very much for your enthusiasm and in taking part. I had so many emails about the giveaway and fear not because the chances, chances are we will be running another similar giveaway in the future.
But if you are still wanting to travel and hit the road and join me on a Tudor adventure through time, then do bear in mind that we still have three places left on our Mary Queen of Scots tour for May of this year. So just a few places left there and in fact, due to a late notice cancellation, we now have one place that has become available on our previously fully booked 1502 tour. So this is the year that shook the Tudor throne and it's all about the 1502 progress of Henry VII and Elizabeth of York. And indeed we will be following in their footsteps from Oxfordshire through to southeast Wales through the beautiful Cotswold countryside.
So if you're looking for a last minute adventure, those are two options. And of course we do still have places left available on our Rise and Fall of Amberlynn tour going in September of this year, certainly our most popular tour because of course of the lady herself.
But you can be Assured, whichever tour you join us on, you will take away some incredible memories and new Tudor loving friends. Hopefully that will last a lifetime.
All right, well, I think that's all with our announcements today. We need now to focus on Catherine of Aragon, such a beloved figure in Tudor history.
Now, if you've listened to my previous two podcasts, you know that we began our story about the final years of Catherine at Buckden palace before moving on to Kimbolton, where of course, Catherine died on the 7th of January 1536.
We now must imagine that we have followed her funeral cortege, which has wound its way via Saltary Abbey to Peterborough Cathedral, where she is received by some of the great and the good of the church and the Abbot of the then abbey for her internment ceremony.
Today's guest is a wonderful guest, Tim Auburn Jones. I hope you enjoy our conversation today as we pick up Catherine's story and follow her all the way to the grave.
[00:05:00] Speaker C: Well, hello dear listeners and welcome back to this third part of our three part series which follows the final couple of years of the life of Catherine of Aragon. And of course, today we are having been to both Buckden palace and Kimbolton, we have traveled over to Peter, because today we are going to be talking about the funeral of Catherine of Aragon.
So to help us on our way today, I am joined by Tim Alban Jones. Hello and good morning.
[00:05:34] Speaker D: Good morning. Welcome to Peterborough.
[00:05:36] Speaker C: Well, thank you so much. I was only here quite recently for your wonderful Catherine of Aragon Festival, so it's lovely to be back.
And I know at the end of this recording we're going to be talking a little bit more about the up and coming Catherine of Aragon Festival. So, dear listeners, you will want to hear about that because it's a fantastic weekend in January that commemorates the very reason we're here today, in fact.
So before we go any further, I always like people to introduce themselves. What do you do here, Tim? What's your role here at the cathedral?
[00:06:06] Speaker D: My role is canon pastor and Vice dean, which means I'm involved in taking services throughout the week and on Sundays, of course, but I'm also involved in the pastoral care of the cathedral congregation and I also do a few other little bits and pieces here and there.
[00:06:21] Speaker C: And you love your history, don't you?
[00:06:23] Speaker D: I studied history as an undergraduate and I've always loved history.
And this is just like a child in a sweet shop. There's so much to choose from here.
[00:06:31] Speaker C: Absolutely. I'm really looking forward to it. So today we are going to follow Catherine and her body as she arrives here at the gates of the. Of the abbey.
And in fact, maybe you could just describe where we are so we give people a visual of what's here today. But what would we have seen back in January 1536?
[00:06:54] Speaker D: So we're standing here outside Peterborough Cathedral, which was of course, Peterborough Abbey then. It was the sixth wealthiest abbey in the country at the time of the dissolution, so it was a prosperous place. This Galilee Court is a large area of grass.
It's a sort of square, the cathedral precincts. Just outside the cathedral and to directly to the west of the cathedral is the Norman Arch, and that is the arch built as the gatehouse for the abbey. That's the arch through which Catherine would have come on her beer in January 1536.
[00:07:29] Speaker C: And what else would we have seen? Because if you come and visit today, you are surrounded by buildings. It very much feels like a grassed courtyard.
You've mentioned the tower would have been here. What else would have been here at that time?
[00:07:43] Speaker D: As. As we stand here, there's quite a lot of Victorian and 18th century work, but there are some bits that would have been here when Catherine's body was brought here. So there's this archway here into what was the Abbott's lodging. It's now the bishop's lodging, but that was the Abbott's lodging and this was built at the time of Edward ii.
The building to the left of that is also of a similar age. There's some very old parts right next to the cathedral.
Much of what we see else is relatively new.
But over to the north of the cathedral, there's another arch that takes us to what's now the cathedral offices that was built just at the turn of the century by the last but one abbot. It's called Little Prior's Gate and it's got wonderful carvings on the top showing various Tudor motifs. There's the famous Tudor rose. If we believe in such things, we won't go down that rabbit hole today.
You can see there's a portcullis, which is the emblem of Margaret Beaufort. She lived just up the road at Collywest, and they've recently discovered her palace. Of course they did. And there's a rebus in the new building with Margaret Beaufort's portcullis on it. That was actually the entrance to the deer park, which the last but one abbot and Abbot Kirkon had built at the turn of the century. He demolished 50 houses, flattened some of the graveyard in order to extend his deer park so he could go hunting. And that that gateway was the way into it.
[00:09:14] Speaker C: How amazing. Actually, that's a really interesting topic. Could you elaborate a little bit about the life of an abbot? Because I think perhaps some people see them as just holy men devoted to being in the Church, but they were more.
They were on par with nobles almost. Can you talk a little bit about what the abbot's life would have been like?
[00:09:33] Speaker D: Yes, absolutely. Since 1402, the Abbots of Peterborough were mitred abbots. In other words, they sat in the House of Lords and they were entitled to be treated as a bishop. So they carried a pastoral staff and they wore a mitre. We had good abbots and we've had bad abbots. In Peterborough, Robert Kirkton counts as amongst the most villainous.
He was a wicked, wicked man who was far more interested in worldly goods than he was in being a holy monk.
We have much of the accounts from Thomas Cromwell's visitors who sent his commissioners round to value all the abbeys. And, of course, they had a particular agenda. They were trying to find the worst things. There were some honest, pious holy men in many of the abbeys and religious establishments. But in Peterborough, Robert Kirkton was a bad un.
As I say, he demolished 50 houses. He knocked down the town cemetery in order to extend his hunting park.
He spent more on his Christmas entertainments one year than the entire sum he'd given to the poor in the previous year. He was a very worldly man. He ate of finest silver and plate.
He stepped on a feather bed and had 80 liveried servants to look after him.
Robert Kirkton was so worldly that when Cardinal Woolsey visited Peterborough, which he did at Easter, he arrived on Palm Sunday and celebrated the Easter services. Even he was shocked and scandalised by Robert Kirkton's worldliness.
[00:11:03] Speaker C: Really? Well, when was Woolsey here, just out of interest?
[00:11:05] Speaker D: He came here on his journey north.
[00:11:07] Speaker C: Oh, of course. Up to York.
[00:11:08] Speaker D: Up to York, yes.
[00:11:10] Speaker C: So this was one of the locations on that journey. I've got to follow that. I love following journeys and progresses of Tudor folk. I must. Must study that in. In some detail. Okay, that's great. What do we know of the town of Peterborough in the Tudor period? What would have. What would have been here at the time? And also, secondary question, why was Catherine buried here and not, for example, taken to London for a royal burial?
[00:11:36] Speaker D: First question first. The town of Peterborough. You're absolutely right, it was a town.
It wasn't a City until 15.
Henry VIII, when he refounded the abbey as a cathedral, made it a city as well by the same act of Parliament. He also established the school by the same act of Parliament. And the King's school is where the children for our choir come from, even today.
Why was Catherine buried here in Peterborough Abbey?
Henry didn't want her to be buried in London. He feared that there might be some popular unrest. If you'll remember, Anne Boleyn, his then queen, was deeply unpopular and Catherine had always been popular throughout her life and through her reign. So he thought that this was the nearest convenient place. It was a large church suitable for a royal burial, but it wasn't too close to London.
[00:12:29] Speaker C: Were there any other royals buried here?
[00:12:31] Speaker D: No, no. We had royal visitors here during the course of its abbey's history. But no other burials. She was. She was the first. In fact, she's the only one still.
[00:12:39] Speaker C: Still.
[00:12:40] Speaker D: We had one later, but she was only a passing visitor. She was here for 25 years.
[00:12:44] Speaker C: We might touch on that a little bit later, but I'm sure listeners at home, you will know exactly who we're talking about.
Now, we have come from Kimbolton, as the listeners will know, and you talked about Catherine's body being received here at the Norman Gate.
Can you talk to us about the funeral procession and if I'd have been an observer? So, standing outside there in the marketplace, which I presume would have still been there back in the day, what would I have seen?
[00:13:12] Speaker D: You'd have seen a solemn procession with six horses pulling the coffin on a hearse, with the horses draped in black cloth down to the ground.
50 men wearing black carrying torches, escorting this royal cortege.
Cortege from. From Kimbolton. They spent the night at Sartre Abbey, where there were masses said for her. And then they arrived here in Peterborough on the 29th of January, 1536.
[00:13:43] Speaker C: Can I ask, where is Saw Tree in relation to Peterborough? How far away is it and is there anything still to be seen there?
[00:13:50] Speaker D: There's a parish church, which of course is where the abbey was, but Sartre's about 12 miles down the A1.
[00:13:56] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:13:57] Speaker D: The great North Road is very convenient. Conveniently situated. And so Peterborough is not on the North Road, but it's just that little bit off.
[00:14:04] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:14:04] Speaker D: Which gives us a. Easy connections and communication, but not too close.
[00:14:09] Speaker C: So you can go. And go to the parish church at Saltry. You.
[00:14:12] Speaker B: You would. Is.
[00:14:13] Speaker C: Is. Was that part of the body of the original abbey church, or is it a much later iteration?
[00:14:18] Speaker D: To be fair, I've got no idea.
[00:14:20] Speaker C: Okay, interesting. Well, that's something. That's something I might have to look up.
[00:14:23] Speaker D: You Might have to look up.
[00:14:24] Speaker C: Yeah, I've been in.
Oh, I haven't been there. So that might be somewhere to investigate.
[00:14:28] Speaker D: It was a great thrill for me to be in Kimbolton Castle on 7 January this year, the year on which she died. And I was actually in the room which we think was her bedroom. So the room where she died. I was there on the day she died.
[00:14:45] Speaker C: That's quite exciting. I have been in that room, but not on the day she died. But it is quite thrilling, actually, because it's not a place that many Tudor lovers have seen stood in.
[00:14:53] Speaker D: No, it was a real thrill for an historian to be there on that day.
[00:14:57] Speaker C: Yeah, there's something very special about that.
So she was welcomed here and taken to the main west doors that are right in front of this really impressive frontage. And. And we're going to pick up the story of what happens as Catherine's body is greeted at the cathedral. But maybe we should just turn our attention to the cathedral as a building. Can you tell. Tell us a little bit about its history?
[00:15:22] Speaker D: The present building dates back to 1118.
This fine norm. The building was consecrated in 1238. It took him 120 years to build, but it's actually the third building on the site.
The first one was built in 654, destroyed by Vikings and Danish raiders in 870. The second one was destroyed by fire in 1116.
There was a fire in the cook in the bakery, which set fire to the entire abbey. The whole place was burnt down. Most of the place, dormitory, and it nearly engulfed the town.
It burnt for nine days and nights before it finally blew itself out. It took them a couple of years to clear the site and to start work and they started at the far east end in 1118, taking 120 years to come to here.
So what we're looking at here is a fine early English three arcades at the front. This west front is probably unique in Christendom. Not that it has three arches, but that it has a small arch in the middle and two wider arches on the outside. If you think of a Roman triumphal arch, it's the other way round, the big ones in the middle, and there are small arches on the left hand and the right. Here we've got the narrow arch in the front, the middle and. And the wider ones on left and right, which give absolutely no clue as to what you're going to see when you go onto the other side of those doors.
[00:16:47] Speaker C: No, absolutely. And the porch, is that. Was that built at the same Time as this facade.
[00:16:52] Speaker D: No, the porch has sometimes been called a gilded jewel box on the front.
The whole west front leans forward about 18 inches.
So if you're standing at the top, you're 18 inches further away from the. From the. From the front. And we think that might have been put on to stabilize that because these great piers at the front are actually not solid. You can see when we walk through daylight behind them. So the building was thought to be on the move and that might be a way of stabilizing it. It's now our library, but it used to be. It was built originally as the chapel for the Holy Trinity.
And that dates from about 1380.
[00:17:30] Speaker C: I thought it looked quarter, quite a bit quicker, different in some ways.
[00:17:34] Speaker D: They didn't have planning permission in those days. English heritage didn't insist on stylistic unity and coherence.
[00:17:41] Speaker C: Yeah, indeed. Oh, for those heady days.
So we're taking a walk up now. The facade is kind of looming in front of us always. I love walking up to cathedrals. They always put you in your place as being so small and insignificant.
[00:17:57] Speaker D: That's exactly the intention. And there is a school of thought that this 18 inch lean forward is intended to make us feel small and insignificant because we are dwarfed by the giant arches in front of us. And I think that's probably right. We are only small creatures in God's sight.
[00:18:16] Speaker C: Now, who met Catherine's body?
[00:18:18] Speaker D: She was met by six abbots and three or four bishops. At that time, the Abbey of Peterborough was in the diocese of Lincoln. And so the Bishop of Lincoln was here, but we had the Abbot of Peterborough, the Abbot of Walden, the Abbot of Crowland, the Abbot of Thane and various other ones. Ely was here as well.
[00:18:39] Speaker C: I mean, Lincoln, the diocese of Lincoln was huge, wasn't it?
[00:18:42] Speaker D: From the Humber to the Thames.
[00:18:43] Speaker C: I mean, enormous. So, yes. Okay, so what?
[00:18:47] Speaker D: What?
[00:18:47] Speaker C: We're literally standing kind of in the porch. We're just about to head into the porch now. So what do we know of the ceremony from this point?
[00:18:57] Speaker D: We know that there were masses said for her when people were praying for the repose of her soul. And there were more. There was more than one mass said for her, but the solemn high Mass was said up at the high altar.
And we're going to head that way now.
[00:19:14] Speaker C: Yes, let's go that way.
[00:19:17] Speaker D: I think I heard the organ playing.
[00:19:18] Speaker C: Right.
[00:20:34] Speaker D: Sa.
Ra.
Satan.
Sa.
[00:23:33] Speaker C: So, as you can probably hear, dear listeners, we've come inside. The acoustics have changed, so we're right at the west end of the Nave with this fantastic, magnificent view in front of us. Maybe you could just evoke a sense of the architecture around us, please, Tim.
[00:23:50] Speaker D: So we're standing in one of the finest Norman buildings in Europe.
You can see these wonderful rounded arches. There are 14 bays standing from where we are all the way down to the east end there, and it's pretty much all Romanesque Norman architecture at its finest and strongest and sturdiest, so you get that great sense of strength and power. Tower. Looking up, you see our fantastic ceiling, dating back probably to the 1240s, and that's the original paint and original color scheme. It was designed perhaps to be a sort of trick of the eye. These strange lozenge shapes, if you sort of half close your eyes, they look like a scissor beam roof, with the roof with the timbers crisscrossing all the way down.
In the centre of these lozenges, we've got pictures of kings, bishops and archbishops, those who were alive during the 120 years during which it took to build this building.
And then at the far end, we've got St Peter and St Paul, we've got Jesus shown as the Lamb of God. We've even got the devil up there. And we've got a fantastic image of a monkey sitting backwards on a goat, talking to an owl, which we think is a medieval depiction of folly. And so this is a dialogue between good and evil, we think. It's a fascinating thing.
[00:25:13] Speaker C: And people would have known how to read that at the time.
[00:25:17] Speaker D: Almost certainly not apart from.
[00:25:20] Speaker C: I think it's quite difficult to see, isn't it?
[00:25:21] Speaker D: And at the time that Catherine came here, I suspect it wouldn't have looked quite as clean.
We have the benefit. It was cleaned about 20 years ago. It had just been restored. And then there was a terrible fire in 2001 and so they had to conserve it all over again.
But for many centuries, I suspect it would have been blackened by smoke and probably not easy to see what was going on. When Cromwell and his troops came here, they destroyed a ceiling up in the apse, but they left this one intact and probably because they couldn't see what it was.
[00:25:54] Speaker C: Wonderful. Now I know because. Because we were just talking off mic about a really interesting character who I completely missed when I was last here at Peterborough. So if you turn around and look back at the main west doors and look up, you'll see a portrait on the left and then a fresco on the right. Please enlighten us. Who is this person?
[00:26:18] Speaker D: This is Robert Scarlet, the town gravedigger for Many years he lived to the ripe old age of 98, which is an incredible age, and there's a marvellous poem underneath it and it says that he buried the town twice over. If the average life expectancy was 45 and he lived to 98, he'd had two lifetimes and he buried them over. He was a game old thing. He remarried at the age of 89, which is quite amazing.
The fresco there, of course, is showing signs of wear and tear. We don't really have the right climate for frescoes. And so in the 18th century they had that portrait painted which they hung on top of the fresco. And it wasn't until the 1960s, when the portrait was taken down for restoration, that they discovered this fresco behind it. Everyone had forgotten it was there. Underneath the fresco is a marvelous poem which describes who Old Scarlet was.
[00:27:15] Speaker C: Please read it all for us.
[00:27:17] Speaker D: Well, I think reading all is probably a bit much, but let me read you a little bit here. It says, second to none for strength and sturdy limb, A scarabae mighty voice with the visage grim. He had interred two queens within this place and this town's householders in his life space twice over.
[00:27:39] Speaker C: Wonderful. That is just brilliant. And was that put up there contemporary to his life?
[00:27:45] Speaker D: I think it was, because directly underneath that is where his body is laid.
[00:27:49] Speaker B: Oh, it is.
[00:27:50] Speaker D: And he's actually in here. And of course, it's quite extraordinary to have an ordinary working person buried with inside what was then Peterborough Cathedral.
And it says that he buried two queens, he buried Catherine about what we're talking about today. And of course, he also buried Mary Queen of Scots, who comes later. He buried her Catherine in a Catholic abbey. He buried Mary Queen of Scots in a Protestant cathedral.
[00:28:15] Speaker C: I'd love to have a good old chat with him. Can you imagine all the. What he could have told you with all those years?
[00:28:21] Speaker D: Absolutely.
There's even a possible possibility that the. The scene in Hamlet. Alas, poor Yorick, I knew him well, might actually be based on our friend old Scarlet here.
John Fletcher, who was a younger contemporary of Fletcher, of Shakespeare, was a poet and his. And a playwright. And his father was Richard Fletcher, who had been the Dean of Peterborough. And so it's possible that young John Fletcher knew William, knew Robert Scarlett and was therefore taking. Taking that sort of little memory from his childhood and putting it into a play and talking about it. And Shakespeare used it. Who knows?
[00:29:04] Speaker C: That's fantastic. Well, we've just been. We've been talking and walking down the.
[00:29:07] Speaker D: Nave we're heading says that men can't do two things at once.
[00:29:14] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:29:14] Speaker D: Was it. Was it describing one of his opponents, Richard Nixon, talking about Gerald Ford? He couldn't famously talk, chew gum and walk at the same time. He could only do one or the other.
[00:29:25] Speaker C: So we. We're leaving the nave behind. Right. And entering the choir part. And these gorgeous choir stalls here, are they medieval or are they later?
[00:29:38] Speaker D: The choir stalls are magnificent. They're in a medieval style, but they're absolutely not medieval. They're Victorian. Late Victorian. There was a Crisis in the 1880s when the tower almost fell down.
It had to be taken down before it fell down precipitously, calamitously.
And as a result of that, there was some major reworking and reordering of going on. So the choir stalls are all 1880s. Interesting. They tell the story of the abbey through various figures from the abbey's past going up here. So we've got King Peder who founded the abbey, we've got King Edgar and Queen Eolflis who refounded the second abbey.
We've got Catherine of Aragon portrayed up there as well. We'll go and find her as well.
[00:30:22] Speaker C: Let's please go and find her.
[00:30:24] Speaker D: Almost certainly there would have been a pulpitum, a stone pulpitum at some point, probably around where we're standing. So when you enter Peterborough Cathedral now, one of the great things that strikes you is the view from east to west uninterrupted by anything. One of only two cathedrals in the country.
[00:30:40] Speaker C: I was going to ask. There's no kind of screen.
[00:30:43] Speaker D: There's no screen or pulpitum. Absolutely. But there would have been. And there have been at least two, if not three pulpitums during the course of this abbey's life.
[00:30:50] Speaker C: Right.
[00:30:51] Speaker D: In various places. So Catherine wouldn't have had. Well, the. Catherine's cortege wouldn't have had this. This view.
[00:30:56] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:30:57] Speaker C: So where's Catherine's? Just up there she is. Right. It's a very much a Victorian depiction, isn't it?
[00:31:04] Speaker D: It's a Victorian depiction of all these people, of these medieval abbots. We've got Harrywood the Wake up there, who's a figure from. He would have been called a freedom fighter in these days, but who. Who resisted the Norman invasion.
Yes, they're all. They're all Victorian creations. There's a lovely chap up there, John William Connor McGee, who was the Bishop of Peterborough, who went off to become Archbishop of York.
He's buried just outside. But there's a picture of. So a Victorian statue of a Victorian figure looking every inch the Prince Bishop that he was brilliant.
[00:31:38] Speaker C: Now can we go and stand where we stand? Think the coffin would have been brought?
[00:31:44] Speaker D: Certainly.
[00:31:49] Speaker C: It's very open, isn't it? It's a really.
[00:31:52] Speaker D: And of course we love the. The fact that it's all clear stone and clean and it's beautiful. Not too many stained glass windows. They would have all been stained glass and they were all destroyed by Cromwell. What we're looking at, not in the ground floor but the next two levels up is a sort of collage, a mosaic of little fragments of medieval glass that have been re. Put together.
[00:32:14] Speaker C: So that's the window right at the top, right behind.
[00:32:16] Speaker D: And the one. The two. The two behind the clear story and in the triforium level.
[00:32:20] Speaker C: I see, right.
[00:32:22] Speaker D: They're fragments of medieval glass that were preserved, goodness knows by whom, but 120 years later, Dean Tarrant had them reassembled into that pattern.
We're about to start climbing a series of steps towards the high altar. The steps are a later edition. This is part of the Victorian reordering under John Loughborough Pearson, who was the architect who saved the tower. Pearson's great work of art was Truro Cathedral, which he designed. So this. This sense of rising up to get to the high altar probably wasn't authentic, but the high altar would have been somewhere around here.
We're standing on this magnificent mosaic floor that was put in as part of the Victorian restorations and it's really beautiful.
[00:33:12] Speaker C: Actually. I'm not always a great fan of Victoriana, but this is actually beautiful. It's been done very well.
[00:33:18] Speaker D: It has been done. And the closer you get to the altar, the more elaborate and intricate it becomes. And you can actually walk across the thing almost like a mosaic, almost like a.
Amazed. You can follow the path of these. These patterns that go intricately across the whole floor.
Wonderful, wonderful mastery of design. If you look, you see there are these octagons, each with a. Subdivided into the eight. And you can see each of the eight sections has a different pattern of stone and it's the same all the way across, every part. Everyone is slightly different.
[00:33:50] Speaker C: Reminds me of the Cosmati pavement.
[00:33:52] Speaker D: That's exactly what we call it. It is a cosmetic by. By Greek workmen in the 1880s. And the story is that they did it behind screens because they didn't want people to see how they did this. Magnificent workmanship.
[00:34:06] Speaker C: Oh, very, very cloak and dagger indeed.
[00:34:09] Speaker D: So we're standing here looking at a magnificent baldacchino, the work of John Duffer Pearson, designed by him and based on one In Rome, in Santa Maria del Cosmodine, there's a similar. Baldacchino Pearson looked at the baton and then improved it, as it were, by. By putting this again. Fantastic. Wonderful mosaics which glitter and gleam.
[00:34:34] Speaker C: Yes. There's a lot of gold in there, isn't there?
[00:34:36] Speaker D: And again, the patterns are so beautiful. There are four roundels of decoration, each with a different pattern inside it. And then the triangles all the way around have again, different patterns. Beautiful, beautiful. The four evangelists in. In alabaster on the sides.
This, of course, wouldn't have been here.
[00:34:53] Speaker C: Yes. What would we have seen?
[00:34:56] Speaker D: I think the high altar was a little bit further back in what we now call the apse chapel, so directly at the east end.
One of the things that makes Peterborough special is its. We call it the new building, which is the retro choir that had recently been put in when. When Catherine of Aragon was buried here. So the space behind the high altar had been put in the turn of the century, 1499, 1500, by. By wicked old Abbot Kirkton.
He was wicked and vain and perhaps we might even see some of his vanity when we get round there. They. He made sure that we didn't forget him.
But that was behind the high altar and the high altar was here. And Catherine's memorial funeral mass took place here.
And then just to the left of the high altar on the north side, we can see where she was buried just down here. Could.
[00:35:46] Speaker C: Could I ask you first, before we talk about the burial site about. Because it's a lovely account, isn't there, of Catherine's funeral service? Actually, we do have an account in some detail about how this space was decorated to honor her lineage and also what took place. So could you give. Give us some of those details and bring that. That whole ceremony to life?
[00:36:09] Speaker D: We're told that there was a wooden platform built here for her coffin and it was draped with. With velvet banners that were. That were black velvet. There were a thousand candles burning, which is just amazing. And one can't help wondering whether that might be a little bit of hyperbole, possibly even exaggeration for effect. There were lots of candles, they say, a thousand candles burning. She was a very popular lady. She was buried not as a former Queen of England. She was buried as the Dowager Princess of Wales. Henry was spiteful right up to the end, refusing to recognize her as his wife, recognizing her as his dead brother's widow.
[00:36:52] Speaker C: And that was reflected in some of the banners that were displayed. Prince Arthur's heraldry, for example.
[00:36:58] Speaker D: That's right.
[00:36:59] Speaker C: But Catherine Catherine to the end, disputed that, didn't she? She was having none of it right till the end.
[00:37:06] Speaker D: She was born and raised to be the Queen of England. She had been betrothed at the age of two or three to Prince Arthur, and so she was raised throughout her life to be Queen of England. That was her destiny.
And she didn't believe that Henry should be setting her aside and she refused to recognize it. She could have gone for the easy life when the king wanted a divorce. She could have gone off to a monastery and become a nun.
But she didn't want that because that wasn't what her destiny was to have been. She was, as we know, a very religious woman, very pious, full of good works, said her prayers daily, went to Mass daily.
So going to a monastery wouldn't have been the worst thing. But actually, that wasn't what she felt God had called her to do. She felt called to be the Queen of England. So, yes, and of course, she was of great royal descent.
One could say that the Tudors were relatively new. One wouldn't want to use the word parvenu or upstart.
But Catherine's lineage went back for generations. She had a king and a queen.
Her parents were both monarchs in their own right, and when they married, her lineage was much more better than Henry's. But we better not say that too loudly.
[00:38:18] Speaker C: No, indeed. And so we have the coffin, as you said, draped with. In black and all the heraldry around us. We've got maybe a thousand candles, as you say, a lot. And then the other thing that caught my eye was the ban. Her. Her. They. They did put her motto, humble and loyal.
[00:38:36] Speaker D: Yes.
[00:38:37] Speaker C: So a banner with gold. Gold lettering.
Yes.
[00:38:41] Speaker D: Yes. So the account says humble and loyal. Yes.
[00:38:43] Speaker C: Who wrote that account, by the way?
[00:38:46] Speaker D: Well, I've only read it in a book that is very much sort of hagiography of Catherine bigging her up. And I'm not entirely sure.
[00:38:56] Speaker C: I did wonder when I read it, and I would just need to go back and check the sources. I wondered whether Eustace Chapuy had written an account.
Obviously he wasn't here, was he? He didn't come to the ceremony, but maybe he would have sent some of his men to see what was going on. And I'm sure he did report, because I think that account is in the letters of Charles V on the continent. So it was clearly an account being written that was going to be sent to the Holy Roman Emperor about what happened to the burial of his aunt. But I need to check, I need to Find out who had written that.
Now, we also have Catherine's ladies were present as well. Can you tell us a little bit about maybe who the chief mourner was and who some of the ladies were that were present?
[00:39:46] Speaker D: I think the chief mourner was Lady Eleanor, who was Charles Brandon's daughter.
So she would have been here representing the royal family, but she was slightly sort of one stage removed. Henry. Henry was spiteful and wouldn't. He said it was too expensive to have a royal funeral in London, which I think was just an excuse.
The day that Catherine. The day that the news of Catherine's death came to the court, apparently Henry had a ball that night, celebrate, having celebrations. Because he was a free man.
[00:40:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:40:17] Speaker C: Free of suspicion, of war, I think he. He said.
[00:40:20] Speaker D: Yes.
[00:40:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:40:22] Speaker C: So it certainly was an eventful year, that's for sure.
A lot happened in 1536. So we have Eleanor. Eleanor, as you say, daughter of Charles Brandon and Mary Tudor, Queen of France. So that makes her Henry VIII's niece, I think, but no royal family.
And that was normal, wasn't it? I mean, just for those people who may. Because I do get questions sometimes on social media, why didn't. Not just. Not just with Catherine of Aragon's funeral, but with other royal burials, why didn't the King go? Yes, but that wasn't the done thing.
[00:40:58] Speaker D: It wasn't the done thing. And even more bizarrely, and even small, even more sad, Catherine's daughter wasn't allowed to come. Catherine hadn't seen Mary since she'd been sent into internal exile.
And I think Henry even tried to stop them writing to each other. Spiteful. Using his daughter as a pawn to try and get concessions out of Catherine.
[00:41:21] Speaker C: Yeah. I'm sure Mary would have loved to have been here.
[00:41:23] Speaker D: Yes. And she, like her mother, shared that great, fervent Roman Catholic faith.
[00:41:29] Speaker C: Yes.
So we have. What was the normal order of events? She was brought in and there was a service.
[00:41:36] Speaker D: Yes, A mass. A mass. All in Latin, of course. It would have been sung to plain song, which is the music of the ancient music of the church. So the monks would have sung the burial service, the funeral mass for the dead, in Latin, which is a very moving thing. And these stones, this wonderful place. We sometimes sing plainsong today, the cathedral choir and I always like to imagine the stones going, yippee. We know what to do with this because as the choir singing it down the nave, it comes echoing back. And those sounds would have been been in this space for centuries, washed off, echoing off the walls. That's Wonderful.
[00:45:11] Speaker C: And the coffee was left here overnight, I think. Was that right? I think. And then. And then buried the following day.
[00:45:17] Speaker D: That's right. She arrived on the 28th, and there was. There was a mass said when she arrived. And then that the following day was the main funeral mass with all the bells and smells, as it were. And they would have been bells and smells, they would have been incense, they would have been candles, they would have been singing.
[00:45:31] Speaker C: Yeah. I'm so glad that Catherine got to be buried in full Roman Catholic rites.
[00:45:36] Speaker D: Yes.
[00:45:38] Speaker C: So that brings us onto where she was buried. And I look to my left and maybe we could go round, because you can see the place she was buried from here. But it'd be lovely to go round and look at it properly and talk about.
Because what's there now wasn't the original.
[00:45:53] Speaker D: Not at all. And I think the floor levels are different now. So as we're standing in the presbytery, the sort of the chancel of the cathedral, there's a bit of a drop, a couple of feet to get to the floor level where Catherine is buried. And I think probably at Catherine's time, it would have been a bit more flush. But we can walk around that way.
[00:46:13] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:46:21] Speaker D: We're just walking past this clock and some of the black metal work has been taken away. But that clock was ticking when Catherine was here. This metal work dates from 1450.
And I think that's just extraordinary to think that it's been telling the time all that time. As you can see, it's under repair at the. The moment. And it has been added to 1836. And there was another one from 1686. There was another edition put in.
The metal work is different colored to. To show the dates, but the black metal dates from 1480. And I think each one of these cog wheels has been made by hand.
I think that's quite extraordinary.
[00:47:01] Speaker C: It is extraordinary, actually.
And how. I. I just.
[00:47:05] Speaker D: This is the flywheel that obviously it's a bit later, but the rotates around. There was never a clock and it was up. The one up in the tower. But this is the clock that told the time for the town.
[00:47:14] Speaker C: Where was it then?
[00:47:15] Speaker D: Up in the town?
[00:47:15] Speaker C: Oh, it was in the tower.
[00:47:17] Speaker B: Right, okay. Yeah.
[00:47:18] Speaker C: I suppose the people of the town lived by bells as well. They would have heard chimes and bells. It sort of marks out the day for people very much.
[00:47:27] Speaker D: So they would have heard the. The ringing of the monastic hours that when monks came to say their prayers. And that would have sounded through the town. Yeah, the town Would have been much smaller. It would also be much quieter, of course. I think it was a quieter world than the one we live in.
[00:47:42] Speaker C: Oh, yes.
[00:47:43] Speaker D: And so the sound of bells would have been quite loud.
[00:47:45] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. So here we are, we're. We've come to Catherine's tomb. Can you describe what happened at her burial and what was the original monument? What do we know about it?
[00:47:57] Speaker D: She was buried here on the north side of the high altar, and the tomb would have been what we would call a table tomb. So, raised up from the ground, there are three fragments of the tomb that are still surviving. There's one on the wall there, and then there are two behind the railings here you can see there's some Victorian ironwork.
There's a couple of bits of stone there and there's a piece of stone there with a carving on it. Those, we think, came from the original tomb, the chest.
[00:48:29] Speaker C: Chest.
[00:48:30] Speaker D: And it would have been covered with a Paul. A cloth.
We know that when Cromwell's troops came to destroy the abbey, they took the cloth off and destroyed that first. But this plain piece of stone is where Catherine is buried.
[00:48:46] Speaker C: So right at our feet here, there is this. As you say, it's a very, very plain slab. But this is her burial place.
[00:48:53] Speaker D: Cromwell soldiers destroyed the upper work, if you like, the stuff above the ground, but they left her intact and they didn't. Didn't violate the tomb, which was great.
And it laid like that for centuries, until the end of the 19th century, when the dean's wife thought it was a rather poor show that one of the queens of England had no marking place or no monument to being here. And so by public subscription, she raised funds for this plain black slab which has Catherine of Aragon's image and pomegranates and various bits and pieces telling who she was.
You'll see that on the slave we have two trays with pomegranates on. Pomegranates were her personal symbol and we might talk about why that should be.
But we don't put them there, we just take them away. When they get a bit decree, people come, people come and lay them almost as if they were laying items at a shrine, which I think is rather sweet and touching. Even today, people come and hold her in great regard and bring offerings to her, to her burial place.
[00:49:59] Speaker C: Yes, she's still very beloved by many, many, many people.
[00:50:03] Speaker D: The pomegranate was an emblem of fertility, obviously, with all the seeds. It's also part of the Spanish flag hanging above the tomb. Here we have the Flag of Spain, which shows some of the kingdoms which made up Spain. And at the bottom there, you'll see there's a pomegranate.
And the Spanish for pomegranate is Granada.
Think of grenadine, which is made from pomegranate juice.
[00:50:28] Speaker C: How wonderful.
[00:50:30] Speaker D: So it's tremendous that people still keep that alive.
Rather ironic and rather sad that in spite of that symbol of fertility, she never produced a male heir that survived.
As I'm sure your listeners know, she had more than one pregnancy. I think five or six children were born, but only one survived to adulthood.
Queen Mary.
[00:50:54] Speaker C: And then the. The actual gold lettering which spells out her name, was that placed there at the same time as the. The slab?
[00:51:01] Speaker D: No, that was put there as a result of Mary of Teck, Queen Mary, in the 1930s when she visited the cathedral, she thought it was rather shame that it didn't say quite clearly. So there was a discussion. We've got the correspondence between the palace and the dean at the time up in the archive saying that it was that she wanted this to have the letters saying that this was Queen Catherine.
[00:51:25] Speaker C: Brilliant. I love that. So two formidable women, obviously.
[00:51:30] Speaker D: Very much so, yes.
[00:51:31] Speaker C: Three formidable women. I say, pointing to Catherine's tomb, creating this for her. Well, it's very moving indeed. Now, what was the other bit you said was on the wall? Oh, I see here, just this slab. This is another slab of stone which has clearly been broken and hacked at. But this was originally.
[00:51:48] Speaker D: We think that. We think that might well have been part of the original house, as it was called.
And it's sited there, just below a piscina, because the abbey used to stop just here. Ah.
We're standing at the north side of the choir of the aisle.
And this, this entrance was put in by Robert Kirkton, the wicked. Last but one abbot, and he was wicked and vain. We call it the new building, which is perhaps something of an affectation since it's hundreds of years old, but it's rather beautiful.
[00:52:23] Speaker C: It's got one of Those fabulous late 15th, early 16th century fan vaulted ceilings that I associate with the Henry VII chapel at Westminster Abbey.
[00:52:34] Speaker D: Yes, and also King's College, Cambridge. The same team of master masons came from Peterborough to King's College, Cambridge and did the same thing.
Sometimes people from Cambridge look down their noses at us and tell us that, ah, yes, he practiced here in Peterborough and then got it right in Cambridge. And we, without a doubt and without fail, always say, no, no, no, Cambridge are the copycats, they are the johnny come. Lately we got it Here first.
[00:53:04] Speaker C: This is the original. Original is always the best.
[00:53:06] Speaker D: And John Worstell moved from here to King's College, Cambridge. He also went to. To Canterbury Cathedral. He also did work at Bury St Edmunds Abbey, which of course has all been destroyed.
I'm standing here on the north side of the new building, pointing at what we call a rebus.
And if you look there, you can see there's a picture of a church.
[00:53:29] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:53:29] Speaker D: And a picture of a beer barrel.
[00:53:31] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:53:33] Speaker D: Another word for a church is a kirk.
And another word for a beer barrel is a ton.
So if you get Kirkton, we have Abbott Robert Kirkton, the man who was responsible for building that.
So he wanted to be remembered. And if you look at the top of the arch, you've got the same thing going on there. Kirkton. In fact, there are four or five of them in this part of the building. Just in case you should forget who he was.
[00:53:56] Speaker C: I love rebuses. I think we should bring rebuses back.
[00:53:59] Speaker D: I'm having a sabbatical in next month for three months and I'm going to be doing some work on the rebus.
[00:54:05] Speaker C: Oh, brilliant.
[00:54:05] Speaker D: Well, see whether we compare them with other.
With other church, other cathedrals and see what they've got.
[00:54:11] Speaker C: Yeah, brilliant. Yes, yes, because Morton had his ton as well. The Archbishop of Canterbury for Henry vii. I think, if I remember rightly.
[00:54:21] Speaker D: Very good, Cardinal Morton.
[00:54:23] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:54:24] Speaker D: Morton's fork.
[00:54:26] Speaker B: I don't know. Morton's.
[00:54:27] Speaker D: Morton's fork.
Madam, you're so rich dressed, you clearly have so much money. You must give money to the King for taxes. Sir, you're rather poorly dressed, you're obviously hiding all your money away. You must give king for the taxes, you. So you.
[00:54:41] Speaker C: Either way you lose.
[00:54:42] Speaker D: Exactly. You. You had to pay taxes.
[00:54:44] Speaker C: Yes, that's right. Of course, of course, of course. Yes.
[00:54:47] Speaker D: Here's Margaret Beaufort.
[00:54:50] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:54:50] Speaker D: And we know that.
We know that Kirkton toed it up to Margaret Beaufort when he enclosed the Deer Park. He got into trouble for it and people took him to court and so he bribed Margaret Beaufort, sending her oxen for her table at Christmas.
[00:55:07] Speaker C: I see, yes. And just to say, dear listeners, if you are, because Tim mentioned Margaret's palace at Collyweston and if you haven't listened to our two episodes on Collie Weston, because I've been following the dig there and what they've been uncovering, do check out other episodes of the Tudor History and Travel Show. Perhaps I'll link them in the description as well. But very fascinating place. Shame there's not More of that left.
What an amazing building.
[00:55:35] Speaker D: And of course Collie Weston is the. Is the. The site of much slate. The collyweston roofs, which is the cathedral has collie western slate on it. It looks fantastic. Unfortunately, it's not the most waterproof state in the world.
[00:55:52] Speaker C: Well, I think we're probably coming. We've come to the end of our story. We've buried Catherine. We've traveled all the way from Buckden and heard about her dramatic tale.
Catherine's life was always had some drama going on around it, particularly in those later years. But we follow her here to Peterborough where she finally and still lays in rest. And I know it's a very popular place for people to visit and come and pay homage to Catherine. As I said before, she still remains a very popular figure in Tudor history. But before we go, Tim, perhaps I wanted to come back to talk about the Catherine of Aragon festival. So can you tell us a little.
[00:56:30] Speaker D: Bit about it before we get to Catherine of Aragon festival, Can I tell you about these two rebuses?
[00:56:35] Speaker C: Of course you can.
[00:56:37] Speaker D: We think these two rebuses show Catherine and ask.
This building was built at about the time of their wedding, 1501, and that would be about right for the chronology of those two people.
Clearly it's a man and a woman. They're not wearing crowns, they're wearing coronets. So we think they're not king and queen. Again, that thinks that might be Catherine and Arthur. Remember they're in stone as well.
[00:57:03] Speaker C: Yeah, lovely.
That is a lovely way to finish and I would have missed that. So to order to see that, you have to come right there to the far east wall.
[00:57:12] Speaker D: The east wall, yes.
[00:57:13] Speaker C: And look along the kind of the. Just below the windows. Yeah. Look at your rebuses and you will find two faces carved clearly. A man and a woman wearing open coronets.
So see if you can find those. That's a challenge I lay down to you, dear listeners, if you come and visit Peterborough. Okay, so.
[00:57:32] Speaker D: So we do hope you will come and visit Peterborough. We welcome visitors. It's free of charge. We don't charge people to come into the building. We welcome all visitors and particularly at the end of January we have our Catherine of Aragon festival.
Catherine died on the 7th of January and she was buried on the 29th of January. And around the time of the 29th we have a festival of three or four days. We might even make it a week this next year. Each year it gets stacked a week.
[00:58:00] Speaker C: Oh my goodness.
[00:58:01] Speaker D: Something various things going on. When we pay Tribute to this remarkable woman. She was. If she were alive today, she'd be on the front pages of all the newspapers. People would be interested in what she was doing, what she had to say, how she lived her life. And she was. She's been like that all the way through her life. People are fascinated by this remarkable woman and so we want to pay tribute to her. We are enormously privileged to be her last resting place and we want other people to come and see about her and find out about her.
[00:58:30] Speaker C: Now, I know you're in the midst of planning next year. I don't know whether you can give us any insights into what might be coming our way.
[00:58:39] Speaker D: We have a number of talks. We have some really high profile names who are coming to talk for us. If I told you exactly who they were, I'd probably have to be shot.
But I will say go look on the website. Peterborough Cathedral website has all the details of last year's talks. But even more exciting, this year's talks as well. We've got some high flying historical names coming to talk about our high flying historical figure.
[00:59:07] Speaker C: That's wonderful. And some lovely entertainments as well wrapped around it.
[00:59:11] Speaker D: Yes, we had a Tudor banquet this year and we're planning having it slightly differently next year in this space here in the new building.
The only thing I would say to your listeners is remember that this is a Norman building and it's January.
[00:59:28] Speaker C: Yes, indeed.
[00:59:29] Speaker D: So you'll need at least one extra layer of clothing.
It's like going to church in the good old days. You need to wrap up warmly and there's no heating at all in the new building, so you'll need to dance vigorously and also wrap up warmly.
[00:59:45] Speaker C: And of course you can come in period attire, so that's always a good way of keeping warm because if you get wrapped up in all your Tudor layers, that's a very snuggly glazed thing we did.
[00:59:56] Speaker D: I got dressed up last year and I was very proud of it, but it was remarkably warm because there were lots and lots of layers and they were quite close fitting. They kept the air in.
[01:00:05] Speaker C: They do.
[01:00:06] Speaker D: I thought this is not too very bad.
[01:00:08] Speaker C: They knew how to dress for the buildings that they lived in, that's for sure.
[01:00:12] Speaker D: Without central heating.
[01:00:13] Speaker C: Yes, indeed. Well, I can attest it was enormous fun.
I came on your tour of the Abbey by candlelight, which was fantastic and so evocative. That was wonderful. And then enjoyed those entertainments. I can heartily recommend. And maybe, dear listeners, if you do come, hopefully I might see some of you Because I'm hoping to be here again next year.
[01:00:33] Speaker D: Huzzah. Huzzah.
[01:00:35] Speaker B: Well.
[01:00:35] Speaker C: Well, with that, I think we should just thank you, Tim, for being our wonderful guide today and for showing us around this amazing place and talking to us about Catherine of Aragon.
[01:00:43] Speaker D: Thank you, Sarah, for coming. Thank you for making people know of this wonderful lady.
Sat.
[01:02:27] Speaker B: Well, thank you so much, my friends, for tuning into today's episode. And of course, a massive thank you to all the staff at Peterborough Cathedral who made this recording possible. And of course, to our guest expert, Tim Alban Jones.
Do remember that at the end of January every year the cathedral hold a festival in in memory of Catherine of Aragon. Of course, as you will have heard in this recording. And if you haven't made it this year, then please do think about putting it in your diary for next year. And keep an eye open on the Peterborough Cathedral website for all the latest on their events. Of course, we'll be putting a link in the description associated with this podcast.
All right, my friends, well, that's all for this episode. I'll see you on the road again soon.
[01:03:40] Speaker C: Thank you for tuning in to today's.
[01:03:42] Speaker B: Episode of the Tudor History and Travel Show.
If you've loved the show, please take.
[01:03:47] Speaker C: A moment to subscribe like and rate.
[01:03:50] Speaker B: This podcast so that we can spread the Tudor love.
[01:03:54] Speaker C: Until next time, my friends. All that remains for me to say is happy time traveling.
[01:04:11] Speaker D: Sam.
