Episode Transcript
[00:00:21] Speaker A: The Tudor History and Travel show is a podcast that brings Tudor history to life by exploring Tudor places and artefacts in the flesh.
You will be travelling through time with Sarah Morris, the Tudor Travel Guide, uncovering the stories behind some of the most amazing Tudor locations and objects in the uk.
Because when you visit a Tudor building, it is only time and not space which separates you from the past.
And now, over to your host, Sarah Morris.
[00:00:54] Speaker B: Hello my time travelling friends.
When this podcast was first recorded, it originally lived behind a paywall as part of the Tudor Travel Guide membership.
At the time, full episodes were available exclusively to subscribers, with shorter versions released more widely.
That is no longer the case.
I've since made the decision to open up that archive and begin releasing these previously member only episodes to everyone, freely and with great pleasure, so that the wider Tudor community can enjoy them.
As you listen though, you may hear references to dates, events or up and coming moments that have now passed.
But at the heart of the episode, the stories, the research and the passion for Tudor history remain just as relevant. Today.
[00:01:49] Speaker C: My plan up until about a month ago was to release one new episode a month and then one episode from the archives.
However, of course sometimes things don't always go to plan and my dear beloved husband has recently had surgery and unfortunately the recovery is taking a little bit longer than we would like.
This means that over the last few weeks we've been unable to get out and record some of our new up and coming content for current episodes.
So the upshot of this is for the next, well, two or three months, it may be that we are unable to release new episodes of the Tudor History and Travel show, but instead will continue to release 1:1 from the archive each month just to keep us connected.
So I hope that this plan will allow you to scratch a Tudor itch for the time being until both Chris and I can get back out on the road and get recording again. Which of course we will do so as soon as we are able.
[00:03:03] Speaker B: And if this episode whets your appetite for more Tudor history, you, you'll find a vast and ever growing library of articles over at the Tudor Travel Guide blog just waiting for you to explore them.
Or if you'd like to go a step further and actually walk in the footsteps of the Tudors, you can find details of my immersive historical tours over at Simply Tudor Tours, www.simplytudortours.com.
but for now, buckle up, sit back and enjoy this episode from the vaults.
[00:03:42] Speaker C: Hello my time traveling friends.
Welcome to this month's episode of the Tudor History and travel show. It's Sarah here as ever, to bring you another slice of Tudor deliciousness as I visit my next Tudor location now. In fact, in a moment we'll go over to the podcast and to meet with our special expert guest today. Her name is Sam Harper and she is going to be showing us around the wool churches of the Cotswolds.
Now, two churches in particular which have deep links with the wool trade, which was so important to medieval and early Tudor England.
And we'll also be hearing about their links to Henry vii, who visited the area on a couple, well, more than a couple of occasions actually, and whose relationships with the wealthy wool merchants of the Cotswolds was extremely important to his fiscal well being.
We'll also be visiting a church which has the finest set of Tudor stained glass windows anywhere in England.
So you want to stay tuned to hear all about that.
I met up with our guide, Sam Harper at Cirencester at the first of our wool churches. What a beautiful church it is. It's a lovely Cotswold town, very well heeled, I should say, as it always has been. It's quite a wealthy area of England. And I meet up with Sam and we dive deep into the history of the Cotswolds, the wool industry, wool churches and just what close links they had with the Crown and in particular with Henry vii.
So, ladies and gentlemen, I give you the Cotswold wool churches with Sam Harper.
[00:05:34] Speaker D: Welcome, dear listeners, to Cirencester. We are in the heart of the Cotswold and in fact one of the fairest of Cotswolds town.
And I'm here today with our guest expert, Samantha Harper. Hello, Sam.
[00:05:47] Speaker E: Hello. Pleased to be here. Welcome.
[00:05:49] Speaker D: Welcome to the Tudor History and Travel Show.
[00:05:50] Speaker E: Thank you very much.
[00:05:52] Speaker D: Now, we are here today on the trail really of Henry vii, aren't we? A little bit of Elizabeth of York, but mainly Henry vii.
[00:05:59] Speaker E: Mainly Henry vii. And then we'll venture slightly into Henry viii, his son.
[00:06:03] Speaker D: Okay, now before we get going, perhaps you could just introduce yourself I our audience. Who are you and why are you an Expert on Henry VII?
[00:06:12] Speaker E: So, I'm Dr. Samantha Harper.
I worked at Winchester University on the Chamber Books project, which was a project to digitize the personal financial accounts of Henry VII and Henry VIII as kept by John Heron, their treasurer. So they started using the Chamber, their own private quarters, as a financial mechanism to try and bypass the machinery of the exchequer, which had become really quite onerous and slow by that point.
[00:06:48] Speaker D: Right. Fantastic. And I'm very grateful because I'm using those A lot at the moment. I'm writing about, doing some research on writing about the 1502 progress, and that's what really brought us together in the first instance. And I said, samantha, it'd be lovely for us to go on location to talk about a couple of very special places that are associated with Henry vii. But that's exactly what we're going to be doing today. We're starting off at Cirencester and in a moment you're going to tell us why we are here in the church. But then we're going to a small town in Gloucestershire called Fairford, which today would really surprise you if you think thought that there was a real Tudor treasure to be found there.
[00:07:28] Speaker E: But there is, absolutely, yes. It's an absolute marvel.
[00:07:33] Speaker D: Well, I'm not going to say any more about that folk. You're going to have to stick around to find out what that treasure is.
Now, let's set some context, first of all, for our story, which is going to focus mainly on the 1502 progress. What was it all about?
Where did Henry VII and Elizabeth of York go and why did they go there?
But let's set some context about Henry VII and his visits to this part of the world. Because one of the things I found out quite recently as I was doing a little bit of digging and researching, was that, for example, Henry VII had quite a few visits to Gloucester and Lantany Prior, and knew the prior of Lantany Prior very well. And I was like, what's he doing hearing Gloucester, given that Henry Village viii, his son, only came, I think once to this part of the country, but not so for Henry vii.
[00:08:23] Speaker C: Right.
[00:08:24] Speaker E: Well, Lantany Priory is an interesting one, because the prior of Lantany Priory, Henry Dean, was to become a bishop anyway, so. And he regularly is seen in the chamber books to be sending presents of Lantany cheese or mead to Henry vii, which seem to have been quite a favorite.
[00:08:44] Speaker D: So one of the interesting things about Henry VII is he does come to this part of the country on more than one occasion.
And I was curious to know what was drawing him here.
And maybe you could tell us about that. Maybe we could start by setting the broader context was what was Henry VII's interest in the Cotswolds and in the West Country?
[00:09:06] Speaker E: Well, this church, where usually we would be outside, but the rain is absolutely tipping it down. It is this church, it's frequently referred to as the Cathedral of the Cotswolds, and with good reason. It's huge. It was built jointly by the merchant Community of Cirencester and the abbey, which is situated just over to the north of where we are now.
And. And to give a little bit of context, Cirencester was a massive wool trading town. The Cotswolds was made rich by wool. And the churches all the way from here up the Foss way were built and embellished by the mercantile community that lived in their local areas.
So, for example, where we are now, you had the Twin Hoe family were very prominent.
The Thames were over at Fairford, The Fortnays were up at Northleach, and so on and so forth.
Where we are, we are actually stood in the very impressive 15th century porch of Cirencester Church. And it's effectively a medieval tower block. It was put here by the abbey, adjoined to the church to have clerks in the rooms above us.
And they were meant to administer the market over which the abbey had jurisdiction. As you can imagine, that became quite a point of conflict between the mercantile community and the abbey itself, which derives a lot of its income from the market.
But it also meant that because this was such a rich area, they could invest in the fabric of the church. So where we are stood above, above our heads, is the most magnificent 15th century fan vaulting.
And fan vaulting we know from, for example, famously, above the head of Henry VII in his chapel in Westminster Abbey.
The earliest example of fan vaulting that we know of is in Gloucester Cathedral.
And so this was very much a 15th century innovation. And what we will notice is the fan vaulting here bears striking resemblance to that in Fairford Church. And I suspect there are reasons for that which I shall come to later.
[00:11:27] Speaker D: Okay. Right.
So you brought me first of all, or brought us first of all to Cirencester.
Why here first?
[00:11:37] Speaker E: So Henry VII visited here In September of 1496 and again a year later.
And it kind of makes sense, bearing in mind that the abbey was huge. It had a mitred abbot, which means that the abbot sat in the House of Lords.
And being such a rich area, you've got to think of your medieval kings sometimes, like politicians nowadays, they have to go around keeping their donors happy. And they relied on the mercantile community in part for trade.
Certainly we know Henry VII and Raynal Bray.
One of his councillors, prominent councillors, did trade with the Tame family in wool, but also for loans. They were very reliant on loans and benevolences, which were kind of false loans that were not necessarily paid back.
So keeping a good relationship with the mercantile community was an essential.
So that would have been one reason why he was visiting. And of course, in 1497, when he was here in September, it was just after the west country had been incited to rebellion and they'd had a big battle at Blackheath just outside of London. So it was prudent to kind of go on, progress to the west country, show magnificence, display, show your face, court to your local merchants and be a presence.
[00:13:05] Speaker D: And what's that need to court the mercantile classes. The same for his son, Henry vii. I was just curious, or was this something that had petered out by the end of Henry VII's reign?
[00:13:15] Speaker E: So, in 1490s, Henry VII is still trying to build up the rather empty coffers that he inherited from the Yorkist kings.
So, arguably, as Henry VIII reign progressed and he burnt through its inheritance, so to speak, yes, he did need funds, and of course, his battles with Scotland and France were hugely expensive, but arguably not initially.
[00:13:42] Speaker D: So, Sam, I was talking earlier about the fact that I'm busy researching and writing the 1502 progress, which was another of the progresses that came to this part of the country, perhaps, so you could talk a little bit about the context of that progress, because it was quite unusual in some ways, it was a peculiar progress.
[00:14:03] Speaker E: In fact, one doubts whether you could call it a progress at all, given that usually the purpose of progress is to show your magnificence to your subjects, to visit local dignitaries or receivers perhaps in various locales.
And not much of that really happened on this particular progress. It seemed to resemble more a trip down memory lane. Okay, so. So initially he's at Langley and Woodstock, his hunting lodges, and then he makes his way over to Wales, and he stays in his childhood home of Raglan and Chepstow he visits as well, and he's hosted by Walter Herbert.
Now, Walter Herbert was the second son of William Herbert, who was created Earl of Pembroke by Edward iv, and he was the first indigenous Welshman to be created a member of the nobility.
And Walter's elder brother, William, inherited the earldom, of course, although later he got downgraded to Earl of Huntingdon by Richard iii.
Walter Herbert seems to have remained a lifelong friend of Henry vii. And in fact, Henry was obviously attached to the family. One of the first things he did when he won the Batt Bosworth and gained the throne was he gave safe conduct to Herbert's wife, William Herbert's wife, Anne Devereux, to come and visit him in London. So on Progress, they go stay in Raglan and in Chepstow, hosted by Walter. And Walter, we Think also used to mark the anniversary of Bosworth looking at the Chamber books by sending a gift to Henry vii, be that usually of a hunting hawk of some description.
There is a peculiar entry of one time, him sending a dragon. I'm not entirely sure what that would have been, but still.
And then on the way back, they come via just north of Bristol Gloucester, and then they go and visit some of the Queen's dowerlands, and that encompasses the Fairford.
And some of the local merchants were receivers, royal receivers, of money for the King and Queen.
[00:16:29] Speaker D: I see, I see. Well, that's a lovely description of where they went on this progress. I think you touched on the fact that it's kind of an unusual progress and maybe we should talk a little bit about the context of the death, of course, of Arthur earlier on that year in April. And, you know, because it seemed to me everything, after quashing a number of uprisings towards the end of the 15th century or two in particular, obviously there had been a period of stability that had come to Henry VII's reign. But then he loses some really important people to him, I think. Does he? Like Archbishop Morton?
Various people die and I think it's including, of course, his son and heir.
[00:17:09] Speaker E: So there's.
[00:17:10] Speaker D: It's sort of feels as though, again, there's some kind of sense of instability in the dynasty going forward.
[00:17:15] Speaker E: It's quite an interesting time. You're right. He does lose Morton in 1500.
He loses important people in government like John Mordaunt.
In fact, later in 1503, he will lose Raynal Bray, who has kind of been a mainstay throughout his reign and was a servant of his mothers, Margaret Beaufort, of course.
And not only that, it's quite strange. This also coincides with losing an awful lot of aldermen within City of London, including many of his allies, such as John Shaw, Bartholomew Reed. So there is a general feeling of instability.
The fact that they also choose to travel together at this time is curious, not only because of Arthur's death, but Elizabeth's pregnant and it doesn't seem she's very well. In fact, she has to rest up for a while at Woodstock when coming out here, as seen by her chamber book, where they've had to pay for somebody to come see her while she's sick.
Don't know if something is actually happening among her ladies, because a couple of them are left behind in various places.
[00:18:24] Speaker D: Yes, sick as well.
[00:18:25] Speaker E: Right, sick as well. So maybe they've caught some sort of virus. But given that Elizabeth is pregnant, this is Not a good time to be ill. No, it's a really interesting.
[00:18:35] Speaker D: Because of course she gets pregnant quite quickly after the death of Arthur and then goes on this strenuous progress. I think people are still a bit confused as to why she chose to do that. What's your final feeling about why she took that risk, really?
[00:18:51] Speaker E: It's an interesting one, isn't it? I mean, it's very easy to tend towards the emotional answer, which is that her husband was going on this great trip down memory lane to go and see old haunts and old friends, and she took the opportunity to go with him and also visit her dowerlands on the back on the way back.
Potentially we can't know for sure, there is only so much administrative records will tell you. But put in the emotional context, it is very tempting to reach that conclusion.
[00:19:24] Speaker D: But curiously, they didn't go to Worcester and I think a lot of people
[00:19:27] Speaker E: scratched their heads, which is where Arthur lies, of course. Yes, it does seem peculiar, potentially, because he hasn't got a tomb there as yet. It takes a while to create a worthy tomb. Of course, maybe it was tomb motive, who knows? It's very difficult to tell.
[00:19:48] Speaker D: But interestingly, you were telling me, I think off recording, that they probably took the little Prince Henry, the new son and heir, essentially.
[00:19:58] Speaker E: So, yes, it is probable that Henry came with them and this could have been quite an interesting experience for him, seeing where his father was brought up.
The context, visiting Wales, which as a new Prince of Wales arguably may have been seen to be important by his father.
Interestingly, I believe that it is very, very likely that Henry VII would have spoken Welsh, because from a very early age he was living with the Herbert family, who were Welsh speakers. We know this.
And it's not infeasible to suppose that all the nursery staff, the servants and retainers of William Herbert, Earl of Pembroke, would have been native Welsh speakers.
It may have been the reason why Jasper Tudor, when he took Henry into exile at the age of 14, chose Brittany, because of course, the language in Brittany and Wales are very, very similar.
[00:20:59] Speaker D: Right.
[00:21:00] Speaker E: Again, it's speculation, but it is a very tempting conjecture.
[00:21:04] Speaker D: Some really interesting things I think, to bear in mind around what's going on with the 1502 progress. Lots of unanswered questions, but still good to muse on them.
In 1502, Henry didn't come here to Cirencester.
[00:22:51] Speaker E: That's right, he didn't. Or leastways the records seem to suggest that he did not.
The reason we're here is because there are an awful Lot of similarities between this church and the one we will see later in Fairford, when Fairford is famous for its stained glass. The church was largely rebuilt by John Tame, who was a prominent wool merchant.
And the glass is out of character for English medieval glass of the time.
They think that it was constructed very, very early 16th century, and it is in the Flemish style and it is the most complete set of medieval glass we have in our country.
It's possible it was created in the workshop of Bernard Flowers, who was Henry VII's glazier.
And again, a tempting conjecture is that Henry VII facilitated the contact with Bernard Flowers to create this fine medieval glass.
We're stood at the moment in St. Catherine's Chapel in Cirencester Church, under, again, a fantastic fan vaulted ceiling akin to the one that we saw in the porch as we came into the church.
And this kind of unvaulting we've seen, as I mentioned before, in Henry VII's chapel.
And it was constructed by a stonemason called William Virtue, who also worked over at Bath Abbey and other places out in the West.
It isn't infeasible that the same stonemason either had a hand in this or supervised or advised on this fan vaulting and that in Fairford.
[00:24:47] Speaker D: Yeah, I mean, it is just the Henry VII chapel in miniature, really, isn't it?
[00:24:50] Speaker E: It's glorious, fantastic. It's not quite as grand as a Henry VII chapel, but it is marvellous. And over on the east end, above the altar of this chapel, are the arms painted of Henry vii.
[00:25:05] Speaker D: Oh, so they are right in the center there.
And what do we have going on around the arms? Is it all royal regalia and insignia or. My eyesight's not what it used to be. Sam, you and me both.
[00:25:20] Speaker E: You and me both.
There look to be a couple of greyhounds and a Welsh dragon and something blue. I confess, I can't quite see.
[00:25:30] Speaker D: Well, thanks to Apple technology, we've been able to take a picture of it and we can clearly see there is. It looks like a dragon and, as you said, a greyhound.
[00:25:39] Speaker E: Yep.
[00:25:40] Speaker D: Or is that the dragon?
[00:25:41] Speaker E: I think that's the dragon, the red dragon and arguably that could be a blue lion.
[00:25:46] Speaker D: Ah, yeah.
[00:25:46] Speaker E: With a couple of greyhounds. And of course, Henry VII and the Queen were both very, very fond of their greyhounds. There's a lot of payments to keepers of the greyhounds in their chamber books. His favorite greyhound was called Lancelot. He had a special collar and a special keeper.
And also there are remnants of the painted walls, medieval wall paintings in this chapel. And bright red over on our left.
And it's easy to imagine a riot of colour that this once would have been.
[00:26:20] Speaker D: So was this chapel specifically dedicated to or built in honor of Henry VII's association, association with the town?
[00:26:31] Speaker E: This chapel was certainly 15th century, as you could tell by the perpendicular window on the east end. I don't believe it was built particularly for Henry VII. It's dedicated now to St. Catherine.
But the plethora over to our left in a further chapel. The plethora of medieval brasses in there seems to suggest it was almost some sort of mercantile mausoleum going on there. This certainly is where the mercantile community who would have chosen to be commemorated. And we know that the Twinhoe family had a chantry within this church.
[00:27:12] Speaker D: It would be interesting to know a little bit about maybe the most prominent or prominent of the mercantile families in Cirencester. Who were they?
[00:27:22] Speaker E: There were a number, but the one which mainly concerns us today is John Twinhoe, who was a prominent wool merchant and lawyer. I believe he served on various commissions of the peace in this area.
And he, his daughter Alice married John Tame, who was a wool merchant who lived over at Fairford. And he rebuilt the church that we'll see later.
Twinyhough is a name that may ring a bell for those who study the 15th century. In that it was his sister in law who was accused of witchcraft and bringing about the death of Isabel Neville, the wife of George Duke Clarence, and then was summarily executed in what was deemed to be an unlawful trial. Very quick trial. She was put on trial for witchcraft and within three hours was hanged. Oh, my goodness me. Edward IV took this in very bad part as his brother taking the law into his own hands and he was in prison not desperately long afterwards.
However, it is argued that not terribly long after that, in 1479, twin hoe and and John Tame were given by Edward IV jointly the lease of the manor of Fairford.
And the argument goes that in part this was compensation for what had happened to his sister in law.
Where we stood at the moment in nave, looking up just at the arcade, so the arches there are series of angels holding shields, mostly of local mercantile families.
And right in the middle is the silver shield of, on the dexter side, the Wyvern, meaning the left as we look at it. And on the right is the lion, a blue lion. And that is the symbol of the Tame family. I say symbol and not code farms because actually they weren't formally granted coat of arms until 1516 when Edmund Tame, John Tames Eldest son was knighted by Henry vii. But they had adopted this device some years earlier.
And equally because the mercantile community, they. They very rarely had ambitions to become members of the gentry. What you often see on these shields are actually merchant marks. The marks they would have stamped their wool sacks with prior for them to them being shipped off for export.
[00:30:16] Speaker D: So that was their version of a coat of arms.
[00:30:17] Speaker E: Basically. It was the nearest thing they had. It allowed them to be identified.
[00:30:22] Speaker D: Yeah, that's fantastic. I think what I've learned from coming here and listening to this first part of the story is just how important those mercantile families were to the Crown and to the prosperity of the Crown and allowing the Crown to do some of the things that it wanted to do. But also.
[00:30:37] Speaker E: So they had the mercantile families had a judicial function in the area. They would have been justices of the peace or acting on royal commissions to investigate mishaps or riots or happenings in the area.
They would have been lenders to the Crown, but they also would have been receivers for the Crown on Crown lands. They would have been gathering rents, for example, in the Queen's dowerlands, which included Fairford.
And they. So they had an important function and it was important for the King to visit them and maintain a good relationship with them in order to make sure that money flowed into his coffers.
[00:31:17] Speaker D: Well, fantastic. And in a moment we're going to be leaving Cirencester Church, we're going to be jumping the car, we're going to be heading on over to Feb, the second part of the story. But I just wanted to say just a couple of things. First of all, not related to a our story, but I know if you love Tudor history, dear listeners, you will want to know that Cirencester Church is the home of the Boleyn cup, which was a cup, a gold cup made for Anne Boleyn in 1535, was given to her daughter Elizabeth and eventually was bequeathed to the church by, I think somebody who Elizabeth in turn passed the cup to.
So you will want to check out that. But just to summarise from the period we're talking about, sort of late 15th century, early 16th century, what are the things that people should definitely look out for when they visit this church? Sam?
[00:32:02] Speaker E: Oh, good grief. Well, I would start at the back on the west end of the church where there is the most magnificent Lego model of the abbey and it's an amazing construct they've actually tried to rebuild in Lego the. The abbey as it would have stood to the north of the church and. And it thing to see.
Quite apart from that, the church itself is magnificent. It's huge for a start. Where we're built, where we're stood in the nave soars up and has been added to with a 15th century clerestory in perpendicular style. Perpendicular characterized by those very straight long lines which kind of draw the eye upwards and a bit little allow in a lot of light.
The side chapels over to the north side on the east end. There is a lot of brasses on the floor where they have again where I mentioned about almost the mercantile mausoleum, the Catherine Chapel next to it with its van vaulting. It's certainly worth a visit. It's a church full of little treasures. And the 15th century wine glass pulpit
[00:33:21] Speaker D: which I just am touching right as we speak now. It really is beautiful there. So there is a lot of 14th, 15th century architecture in this church, would you say?
[00:33:32] Speaker E: There is. It's. It's got a older core and it. And there's been a church here since the doomsday. And then as you move outward you've got 15th century additions to it.
Because the abbey and the mercantile community seem to be in tension with each other. Because of course the abbey had the rights over the market.
It's almost like the church is a war in stone. Each, each entity added a bit to it to kind of go and take that.
And culminating eventually in that magnificent 15th century porch which is really something to behold. And recently has been cleaned and if only it wasn't raining would really be worth a look. See.
[00:34:20] Speaker D: Well, you never know when we go outside it might have stopped raining. We will see. Well, with that I just wanted to mention, dear listeners, as I said in my intro to this podcast, there is going to be a show notes page associated with this podcast. There'll be lots of pictures that we can been busy taking while we've been walking around. So if you want to see some of the images that Sam has been talking about, do check out the link that will be included in the description with this podcast.
Well, I think with that we perhaps could leave Cirencester and head on over to Fairford for the second part of our story.
[00:35:02] Speaker E: Sa.
[00:36:25] Speaker D: So dear listeners, we have come about 8 miles, 8, 9 miles east of Cirencester to a small Gloucestershire town called Fairford. Very unassuming, very pretty little town. And Sam, you're with me again and you've come to show me the church here, which is a beautiful church. But tell me, why have you insisted that we come here today?
[00:36:45] Speaker E: It's fantastic, isn't it? Fairford's Usually known as the big American air base and for the international air to. And this is one of the little gems that's just hidden away. It's kind of it. It's in the style of a lot of the Cotswold churches. It's got the crenelated battlements, the perpendicular windows, the tower.
So this church was built almost in one go, with the exception of the base of the tower by John Tame and his father in law, John Twinhoe, who took over the lease from Edward IV in 1479.
And it's a really interesting mix of the then contemporary and the historical. So if we start looking at the tower, the base of which as I say is earlier, but the top was added onto and is of perpendicular style. But it's decorated with the shields of the declares, the dispensers and the beechams.
The declares and the dispensers were 14th century, well, 13th, 14th century.
Earls of Gloucester and then those lands passed to the Beecham family, the Earls of Warwick.
And then that was inherited through the heiress Isabel Neville, the daughter of Richard Neville, the Earl of Warwick's a kingmaker.
And that it passed to George, Duke of Clarence.
And it was. So you can see they've tried to put in stone a little bit of the history of the manor of Fairford.
[00:38:19] Speaker D: It's lovely, isn't it?
[00:38:20] Speaker E: It's quite good. It's quite good.
So, yeah, there's also little clues as to the family all around as well.
So you've got. Can you see also the little boy climbing over the parapet?
[00:38:36] Speaker C: Yes, they are.
[00:38:37] Speaker D: He's very sweet, isn't he?
[00:38:39] Speaker E: Great? He's fantastic. It's a fairly common motif but there's also, if you look over into the corner by the south porch there, we've got a dragon head and a griffin. If you recall, the. The dragon or wyvern is part of the coat farms of the Tame family.
And there's other little wyvern actually that's a dragon. It's got four legs rather than two, isn't it?
the base of the.
[00:39:05] Speaker D: Yes, I see just by the windows
[00:39:08] Speaker E: with a lion on the other side.
So he's, he's subtly putting his stamp all over the church.
[00:39:17] Speaker D: It's kind of the medieval way of saying I was here, isn't it?
[00:39:20] Speaker E: Absolutely, absolutely. Medieval graffiti in 3D and much more
[00:39:24] Speaker D: beautiful though, I have to say. And again, just to remind folk who are listening, we will be taking photos, maybe some video clips as well that we will be posting alongside our chat here. So we're walking up this lovely path that leads you towards this porch here.
Is there anything particular that we need to pay attention to in relation to sort of the architecture of the porch?
[00:39:49] Speaker E: So the immediate thing you recognize when you go into the church is the fan vaulting on the roof of the south porch. And it's very reminiscent of what we saw in the porch of Cirencester and in St Catherine's Chapel. And it's very likely that they used the same masons. There would have been kind of a trade and tradesmen between the two churches also. As we come in, you notice that in front of us is the big oak door. It's got a square stone frame to it. And on the left hand side, as I look at it is the coat of arms of twin Hoe. So you've got three popinjays and an argent. They call it the. The arrow type stone banner across the middle of it. And then on the other side you've got the wyvern. And the lion tell its wyvern. It's only got two legs as opposed to four.
[00:40:47] Speaker D: So this is what we need to look out for. So two legs means it's a lion.
[00:40:51] Speaker E: Two legs is a wyvern.
[00:40:52] Speaker D: A wyvern.
[00:40:53] Speaker E: Four legs is a dragon. Okay. Although he does seem to interchange him. It seems to kind of go with the mood.
[00:40:58] Speaker D: What's a wyvern?
[00:40:59] Speaker E: A two legged dragon.
[00:41:02] Speaker D: Oh, that famous thing.
[00:41:04] Speaker E: That famous thing. It's a big thing in Swindon, actually.
[00:41:06] Speaker D: You do see wyverns all over Swindon. Right, okay.
No.
[00:41:12] Speaker E: So yes you can. And as I say, that actually wasn't granted to the Thames family as a coat of arms until 1516.
And that was when Edmund Thame was knighted. Now this is the interesting thing. As I mentioned to you. Within Cirencester Church it was rare that members of the country gentry aspired to knighthood. It very rarely happened.
And yet in 1516 you find that Edmond Tame is not only knighted, but he's made a knight of the body.
I noticed as we wandering around.
[00:41:51] Speaker D: You've got little fragments of lovely bright medieval wall painting.
[00:41:55] Speaker E: Painting. Which gives you an idea of just how bright the whole interior would have been. Churches would have been riots of color. They probably would have been the most colorful thing in the lives of the inhabitants. Yeah. Because otherwise all that colour came from nature.
[00:42:11] Speaker D: I mean, of course, nobles and royalty. That's how they would have decorated the interiors of their house. But for normal everyday people, this would be the only place they would come to see that kind of colour.
[00:42:19] Speaker E: That's right, yeah. Absolutely. And they would have taken a pride in the magnificence their own parish churches.
[00:42:26] Speaker D: So Sam, where are we now within the church and why have you brought us here?
[00:42:32] Speaker E: So we're at, in the northeast end of the church in what was probably a lady chapel and in between the lady chapel and the chancel. So the altar at the east end of the church is this magnificent imposing tomb chest of John Tame.
[00:42:51] Speaker D: It's gorgeous, isn't it?
[00:42:52] Speaker E: I mean it's, it's an imposing piece, isn't it? Marble, would you say? Purbeck marble on top? You can always tell Purbeck marble. If you look at it, you can see crushed snails.
[00:43:01] Speaker D: Oh, how fantastic. That's such a top tip.
So that's as opposed to normal marble
[00:43:07] Speaker E: which frequently you just see white beats undecipherable.
[00:43:13] Speaker D: How wonderful. And I can already see, because I was paying attention to what you were saying, that we have a coat of arms here with three pockets. Poppinjays.
[00:43:21] Speaker E: That's right, yep.
[00:43:25] Speaker D: There we go.
[00:43:27] Speaker E: And here we've got there.
[00:43:29] Speaker D: Oh my goodness, that. Is that the.
[00:43:32] Speaker E: Now count your arms on it. Yes.
[00:43:33] Speaker D: It's the dragons, isn't it? That's what you were calling the two legged dragon and the four legged dragon.
[00:43:38] Speaker E: I think that one's actually got four legged. Okay. So I in fact. Sorry, that's reversed. So this is interesting bearing in mind this is John Toomes, John Thames tomb. He dies in 1500.
And so it isn't a set of coat of arms, it's just his symbol, how he likes to identify himself. He's reversed it. Look, that's a dragon, that's a lion.
[00:44:01] Speaker D: What does that mean?
[00:44:03] Speaker E: Well, he's decided to stylistically mess around with it a little bit. So. And that's definitely a dragon because it's got four legs that I can count there as opposed to the two of the wyvern that we've in the porch and, and the lion there and they
[00:44:18] Speaker D: sit those, they're not coat of arms but those whatever you call them.
What do you call them?
[00:44:24] Speaker E: Well, I, I suppose an insignia or just how he identified himself. And it becomes the coat of arms. And more formalized in 1516 when his son Edmund is knighted and not only knighted, but become. Is made a knight of the body, which is quite a mark of honor. He would have been early 50s at the time.
And it suggests that he is known to the royal court, to the king himself.
And it may explain what came later.
[00:44:51] Speaker D: Oh, right. Okay. So what else do we need to know about this tomb? It's really splendid. There's all sorts of sort of inscriptions around the side and.
[00:45:00] Speaker E: Yes, and you've got again, the family shields around the side. So you have starting on the south side on the left, you've got the tame dragon and lion and the popinjays.
[00:45:21] Speaker D: Popinjays, yes.
[00:45:22] Speaker E: And then next to that it all begins to get a little more faded. So again, that's the tame dragon and lion and the poppin jays of Twinhoe there. I love it. On top of the chest we have the brasses of John Tame and his wife Alice Twinhoe, the daughter of John Twinhoe, who is Tame's business partner and she died earlier. She died in the early 1470s. She's wearing a gabled hood, which actually was more contemporary of the late 15th century. But the interesting thing is how John Tame chooses to be perceived. He is not, as is usual in mercantile brasses, in civilian dress and standing on his wall sack, but he's actually in armor.
[00:46:14] Speaker D: Yes, I can see that.
So again does this.
[00:46:18] Speaker E: He was not knighted though, so delusions are grandeur.
[00:46:22] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:46:24] Speaker E: So they're stood on a banner which says, for Jesus love, pray for me.
I may not pray, I can't quite.
[00:46:34] Speaker D: Sam is doing a valiant job of sort of teetering and leaning over the tomb and trying to decipher what the inscriptions.
[00:46:42] Speaker E: Unfortunately the line is just wrong.
To get the right hand side of it, I'd have to hop up over the other side, but it's in English and it's an exhaustion for anyone who sees it to pray for their souls.
[00:46:55] Speaker D: I see.
Can you tell me, are they in this tomb or are they in a vault or under the ground? What would have been the normal arrangement?
[00:47:08] Speaker E: Could be either. Could be either. Sometimes they are found in the chest tomb, sometimes they're found underneath in a vault or. Although Alice, I suspect, is actually over at Sirencester, because of course this church was not built or not rebuilt at the time at which she died.
So she's quite possibly with the rest of Twin a hose over in Siren.
[00:47:30] Speaker D: I see. So it could just be.
[00:47:32] Speaker E: It could just be John himself. It could.
[00:47:35] Speaker D: It's certainly big enough for a coffin, isn't it? It's. Sometimes you see these chapel tombs and I don't know think how are they going to get a coffin in there? But in this instance I could see quite easily that he would be in. Could be in there.
[00:47:47] Speaker E: Yeah, absolutely. And then around the edge we have in brass the legend with his date of death, which looks like the 8th obit Otano. So 8th of the month of May, Anno Domini 1500, it says, in the year of Henry VII.
That looks like sector decimo, which doesn't quite compute, bearing in mind he came to his throne in 1485.
This bit scratched out, unfortunately, but it refers then to alice, his wife.
1471, she died.
[00:48:35] Speaker D: And is this also contemporary with the tomb? Has this been added later? This is a sort of a.
[00:48:40] Speaker E: What would you.
[00:48:40] Speaker D: How would you describe. It's carved wooden. What would you describe this? A screen.
[00:48:44] Speaker E: So all around the chancel, including, as you say, above the tomb, is what looks like a screen, a chancel screen, screening it off from the Lady Chapel to the north and then then looking down towards the west end of the church and the tower and it continues over to the left to the south side as well. And yes, that is. It looks like contemporary 15th century carving with a vine motif going across the top of it. Oh, and polygrammats, it looks like.
Is that polygrammates? No, possibly a different fruit and then different types of leaves actually on each panel.
But also of note here are the fantastic Missouri core, which were taken from Cirencester Abbey at the dissolution.
[00:49:38] Speaker D: Do you know, I was just going to say, why are they here? Because I thought they were associated with abbeys. So you've just gone ahead and answered my question. But they are, aren't they fabulous? Oh, they're fantastic. Can we describe. Describe a couple of them and what we can see.
[00:49:51] Speaker E: So it looks like we have a fox who has just is just about to make a meal of a couple of geese there and an angel. A couple of birds of some description. What would you say those are?
[00:50:05] Speaker D: Yeah, I'm not obviously some kind of like grouse or pheasant or maybe something like that, but yes, sort of foul.
[00:50:15] Speaker E: Yeah. And then a couple merrily drinking out of a barrel. And this face is quite something, isn't he? He's kind of a grotesque with his
[00:50:23] Speaker D: tongue sticking out and big bulbous eyes.
[00:50:26] Speaker E: Maybe he's also been at the barrel.
And then we have another couple there.
It's difficult. Oh, he's mending her shoe or putting on her shoe.
[00:50:35] Speaker D: Yes, it looks like he's. Yeah, she's got her leg extended and it looks like he's helping her on with the shape shoe.
[00:50:40] Speaker E: And then we have what looks like a hog or a pig going something, trying to put a head in pot and the woman bashing him to try and get him out.
[00:50:49] Speaker D: How did they come up with these? Because they could crush. Unique and so absurd in so many ways.
[00:50:57] Speaker E: It's interesting, isn't it? It does make you wonder whether some of them are political commentary at the time or just what they saw in the fields. I mean this is not the full set. There would have been far more of these in the abbey.
So it, it could have been things pertinent to the, to the place. Yes, but they really are quite fine.
[00:51:18] Speaker D: I can imagine the carvers thinking, right, what am I gonna do next?
I did woman bashing hog overhead going into pot last time. What am I going to do next time?
[00:51:30] Speaker E: How do I top that? That?
Yes, indeed. Yeah, they, they truly are fantastic.
There's a lot of so much to see in this church, Sam.
Either side of the doom window, the west window, we have the two judgments. The judgment of Solomon, the judgment of David. And then heading down the north side of the church we've got the Old Testament. So in the corner are the evangelists. But then we who actually recorded it all. And then we move into the Old Testament and the prophets, then the Annunciation going into the Nativity. And in the Lady Chapel, of course, Although you have the flight into Egypt and Christ among the doctors, you also have the assumptions stuck in there as well because Lady Chapel, so they obviously had a sense of where it was going and the function of the room it was being put into over the altar. The east window is the triumphal entry and guests Gethsemane and the Crucifixion. So you've got two stories being told on the bottom lights and the top lights.
[00:53:48] Speaker D: Right.
[00:53:49] Speaker E: And then it moves around to the transfiguration and makes its way up to the apostles which we can see either side each holding their insignia or signs of their martyrdom. So of course you got St. Peter over there with his key and you've got, You can see the cross there of Simon and so on and so forth. Yeah. So it's a story of some of
[00:54:22] Speaker D: the major, just the major parts of the Bible. Right?
[00:54:25] Speaker E: That's right. And the Older Testament. Yeah. And given that this was for a very visual culture, they would have picked up on the, the little clues in all of it. So you can see the plinths that the saints have stood on.
[00:54:40] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:54:42] Speaker E: They will have little messages and figures in there for those milling around to decipher. And then up in the clerestory we have on the left, as I face the west window, the martyrs and confessors and on the right the persecutors such as Herod and Nero, etc. Etc.
So it's a whole story, a whole coherent story being told that you can read. And bear in mind that your average congregation, they wouldn't have been sitting in pews, they wouldn't have been sitting listening to a service in the main body of the nave. They would have been stood, they would have been wandering, they probably would have been talking while the action happened up in the chancel.
[00:55:27] Speaker D: Oh, that's interesting. That reminds me of a very. A carol service long ago in the depths of rural France, where the service was going on and just the congregation were just chatting amongst themselves. It was such an odd experience for me, having been in English churches where there's absolute silence when the service is going on. So that's really interesting.
[00:55:48] Speaker E: The nuns who educated me wouldn't have stood for that.
Absolutely.
[00:55:52] Speaker D: That's really interesting. Thank you for that. I can't help wondering how much this must have cost. I dare say we don't know, but I mean, it must have been an astronomical sum, which for a little church is.
[00:56:05] Speaker E: Yeah, it's astounding, isn't it, to find something this fine? It would have been truly expensive. We don't have any accounts that survive for the Tame family or the Twinhoes, which is a pity. But I suspect you're right, it would have been expensive. And they were getting top quality craftsmen in of royal standard.
[00:56:26] Speaker D: Now, I'm now thinking, going back to what you were saying a few minutes ago now about Henry VIII coming here in 1520.
So these would have just been unveiled in their full glory. Do you think that's why he came then? Is that what you're implicitly suggesting?
[00:56:44] Speaker E: It could have been. It could have been.
It seems unusual that after arriving from France, he dumps his luggage at Windsor and hot foots it over to Little K and then comes here.
So it is possible, bearing in mind that he may have been here on the big memorial tour that they did in 1502, and it may have been arrange then for Bernard Flowers to either work with glaziers or do the glazing in his workshop, or somehow be involved in the process.
It is tempting to think of Henry having fond memories of that time and visiting his Knight of the Body and coming to see the full glory of the windows in situ.
[00:57:32] Speaker D: And at the invitation of Edmund Tame.
[00:57:34] Speaker E: That's right, come and see.
[00:57:35] Speaker D: See the windows. We've got.
[00:57:38] Speaker E: It could have been. And then immediately afterwards, Henry VIII is in Greenwich. So the following week. So it's not even like he's hanging around. He's. As far as we could tell, he's not going up to Cirencester. He's not spending time in the area, so it is a peculiar little sojourn. He's not going off hunting or anything.
[00:57:59] Speaker D: Do we know if he was with Catherine about Aragon, or is there only records of him being here on his own?
[00:58:05] Speaker E: We don't know.
Leastways, bearing in mind my main source for this is the chamber book, there doesn't seem to be any expenses for the Queen for that journey. That doesn't mean that evidence doesn't exist. I mean, an absence of evidence isn't evidence of an absence.
[00:58:24] Speaker D: That's wonderful. Well, I mean, this is amazing how they survived when so many other medieval windows have been lost around the country.
[00:58:33] Speaker E: Any thoughts or theories, especially in this area, given that, for example, Highworth, which is not far away, and Lechlade all suffered in the Civil War and their churches were pretty much pillaged, it's remarkable. I think the fact that Fairford is quite remote and out of the way, even though it was a market town, may have ensured its survival. It had some storm damage to the windows, I believe, and I forget quite when that was, but I'm tempted to say that was 17th, 18th century at some point, and I know that led to some restoration work, but otherwise it's a remarkable survival.
[00:59:14] Speaker D: Yes, you mentioned there has been a bit of restoration over the years, but essentially, essentially we're looking at a complete set of medieval glass.
[00:59:21] Speaker E: Yeah. Wow.
[00:59:22] Speaker D: It's all I can say with the
[00:59:24] Speaker E: treasures combined as well, of the Brasses and the Missouri Corps, this is just an incredible little place to visit.
[00:59:32] Speaker D: Well, I've said it once, dear listeners, and I will say it again, if you ever go to an English town or a village, do make sure you go to the local parish church, because you will be missing out, likely missing out on some of the best history and there are always, almost always, treasures to be found.
So actually, on that note, because I know you love churches, churches are one of your specialities, Sam, if people are interested in learning how to read a church properly and what to look out for, any books or papers or sources you could suggest?
[01:00:11] Speaker E: Well, the go to is always Simon Jenkins's 1000 best churches, but he misses quite a few little architectural gems. He's very interested in tombs. He's very good at describing the general ambiance of a church and it is definitely a book to keep in the car.
But he doesn't necessarily pick up on the architecture and there's an awful lot you can learn or you can easy tricks for dating a church. Just looking at the architecture, the differences and the Evolution of how Gothic evolves and then the advent of the very English style of perpendicular in the 15th century.
So I'm trying to say I don't think there's any one book I would necessarily recommend. Maybe that's one I ought to write.
[01:01:03] Speaker D: I think it could well be. We have spotted a gap in the market. So ladies and gentlemen, look out for Samantha Harper's up and coming book on how to read an English church.
[01:01:15] Speaker E: Actually, I think didn't Robert Taylor write a book, I haven't seen it. But on how to read a church. But I think he's quite concerned with the symbolism therein.
[01:01:25] Speaker C: I see.
[01:01:25] Speaker D: Okay. Well, I definitely think that's a gap in the market.
So does that draw our story to a close?
[01:01:32] Speaker E: So the only thing I would tend to add to that is if you do go around the parish church, don't neglect the outside.
Often the outside tells as much of a story as the inside. And certainly that's true of this church and the other Cotswold churches. But you're quite right, parish churches, they are the unsung gem of our countryside.
When for a time period where we have so few records surviving of the social history, often it's the most evidence we have of medieval people's lives.
[01:02:06] Speaker D: Yes, well, I think that's a great note to hold on and just want to thank you so much for taking us to Cirencester and here to Fairford.
I live not far away from here and I'm ashamed to say I'd never popped into Fairford Church and even if I had, I probably would have missed all the wonderful things that we've been talking about. So my eyes have been open. Thank you so much.
[01:02:29] Speaker E: Thank you very much.
[01:02:32] Speaker C: Well, that's a big hearted thank you to Sam Harper for being our guide today. It was truly eye opening. The Cotswolds and its beautiful wool churches are a wonderful place to visit.
Very, very picturesque and scenic and as I said at the top of this podcast, a very well heeled area of England. So expect to find some very beautiful landscapes, villages, houses and of course some fantastic tea rooms in which you can enjoy your history with a slice of cake and an English cup of tea.
Okay, well I hope you'll join us next month.
Until then, my friends, take care and have a wonderful, wonderful month wherever you are in the world.
Thank you for tuning in to today's episode of the Tudor History, History and Travel Show. If you've loved the show, please take a moment to subscribe like and rate this podcast so that we can spread the Tudor love.
Until next time, my friends. All that remains for me to say is. Happy time traveling,
[01:04:07] Speaker E: Sam.
